Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:Vince, just for my own clarity, are you saying these numbers are including both Frontier and Battle Fleet ships? Or just that neither has CLACs? Or both.

Nobody outside the Haven Sector has CLACs I'm not even sure the IAN has developed a CLAC.

IOW, if you see a CLAC, you can be relatively certain that is RHN, RMN, or GSN. By the same token, those three Navies are the only ones to field modern LACS that are more capable than Customs Inspectors.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Vince, just for my own clarity, are you saying these numbers are including both Frontier and Battle Fleet ships? Or just that neither has CLACs? Or both.

Nobody outside the Haven Sector has CLACs I'm not even sure the IAN has developed a CLAC.

IOW, if you see a CLAC, you can be relatively certain that is RHN, RMN, or GSN. By the same token, those three Navies are the only ones to field modern LACS that are more capable than Customs Inspectors.

Yes, but LACs can be quickly built, and the League should be able to turn them out in job lots. Probably not a design that could compete against GA LACs, but they can assume Haven's original strategy of overwhelming numbers over quality.

My original proposal was that the League get these LACs quickly in development to busy GA LACs, same as Haven's original plans.

LACs aren't a new technology. As I understand it, they were once used loooong ago in space warfare, but discarded. Therefore, the League already has the designs for LACs laying around somewhere.

CLACs may take a minute.

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Yes, but LACs can be quickly built, and the League should be able to turn them out in job lots. Probably not a design that could compete against GA LACs, but they can assume Haven's original strategy of overwhelming numbers over quality.

My original proposal was that the League get these LACs quickly in development to busy GA LACs, same as Haven's original plans.

Right now, the SLN is at the same point as Haven was under the CPS; "Since we can't figure out how they did it, it can't be done. Reports must be exaggerated."

The SLN is at pretty much that point about FTL comms and missile ranges, too. They're closer to accepting reality there since the RMN has repeatedly rubbed their noses in those technologies, but LACs haven't been involved much in anything except Filareta's Folly.

Shrike, Ferret, Katana, and Cimeterre LACs bear little resemblance to old style LACs, such as are still found in some places. Old style LACs compare about the same as a 4.5HP trolling rowboat to an Unlimited Hydroplane.

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Yes, but LACs can be quickly built, and the League should be able to turn them out in job lots. Probably not a design that could compete against GA LACs, but they can assume Haven's original strategy of overwhelming numbers over quality.

My original proposal was that the League get these LACs quickly in development to busy GA LACs, same as Haven's original plans.

Weird Harold wrote:Right now, the SLN is at the same point as Haven was under the CPS; "Since we can't figure out how they did it, it can't be done. Reports must be exaggerated."

The SLN is at pretty much that point about FTL comms and missile ranges, too. They're closer to accepting reality there since the RMN has repeatedly rubbed their noses in those technologies, but LACs haven't been involved much in anything except Filareta's Folly.

Shrike, Ferret, Katana, and Cimeterre LACs bear little resemblance to old style LACs, such as are still found in some places. Old style LACs compare about the same as a 4.5HP trolling rowboat to an Unlimited Hydroplane.

I don't know what I wasn't thinking about.
I forgot to consider all of that whiz kid voodoo built into modern LACs.

Old style LACs compare about the same as a 4.5HP trolling rowboat to an Unlimited Hydroplane.

Just tossing in a thought; Prior to Manticore resurrecting the LAC with the Shrikes and Ferrets, everybody had pretty well stopped building the things because their capability was so limited. They had pretty well gone the way of the frigate...no longer regarded as serious warships.

Don

cthia wrote:

Vince wrote:The only problem with that attack is the numbers and ship types. Prior to Spindle, Battle Fleet had only around 2000 SDs in active service. And no CLACs or LACs at all. Even including Frontier Fleet, the SLN has no CLACs, no LACs and no more SDs in active service than what Battle Fleet had.

Vince, just for my own clarity, are you saying these numbers are including both Frontier and Battle Fleet ships? Or just that neither has CLACs? Or both.

Others have already pointed out that nobody outside of the Haven Quadrant has CLACs, because nobody else has LACs that are worth carrying outside their home system.

As for the superdreadnoughts, Frontier Fleet does not have anything bigger than battlecruisers. So the 2000 superdreadnoughts active in Battle Fleet prior to Spindle are the only superdreadnoughts that the Solarian League Navy had in active service (it's a lot fewer now ). There are many in mothballs in the Reserve Fleet, and a few system defense forces may have superdreadnoughts, but those are not available for active service right in the SLN right now.

I believe Adm. Kingsford already has the general idea that the vast majority of the Reserve Fleet SDs are essentialy useless except as perhaps making some systems feel safer (they would be safer) by parking them in-system and making a show of expanding the fleet and showing something tangible -even if useless.

The SLN does not have the tec in-hand to come close to the Haven and Manticor (or IAN or even Erewhon/ Manticore Lte) equipment. Between the miniaturization of components and electronics, the molycrilic circuits, the FTL communications and the actual automation solutions, the SLN and probably most of the systems in and outside the SL aren't even close. The Alignment has some new tech but the Cataphracts are make-it-bigger-to get some of the extended-performence- solution. Remember, Fillerta thought that RMN HAD to be using some giant type of System Defence Missile and couldn't possibly be using tube-launched device for what were MDMs (and he didn't actualy suspect that they were more than something like the Cataphract writ larger).

Other than ambushing convoys with very light escorts or dropping in with a 5x + ship weight advantage on a system with a couple of light GA warships on guard w/o pod, most of the existing SLN warships are just not going to cut it. That's the whole reason Kingsford appears willing to adopt the proposed (by the Alignment mole) commerce raiding.

It would be interesting to see what the SLN would throw at one of the Lacoon II termini forces in order to push them off. Part of that would be what they thought they would actually accomplish beyond being able to say that they had cleared the hostile forces (can't really say pirates and they couldn't say "invaders" as that would really inflammatory and scary for the general public) from the terminus. They will have damaged but perhaps not actually destroyed any of the SEM warships but then what? They have "sealed" that threat of access to the SL?

They are not going to be able to claim they have "opened" the wormhole to traffic. No merchant is going to test using it as they can expect --at the very least and if they survive- that SEM would possibly send them back through or "strong suggest" that they take the hyperspace route back to SL space or just intern the ship and crew for the duration of hostilities. That is IF they survive comming through against whatever is prepared to receive an SLN WARSHIP comming through and eliminate it as a threat before it can open fire.

Can you imagine the situation and conversation on the bridge of the SLN warship that would be ordered to be the 1st (or 2nd through 15th) transit the wormhole and engage the SEM ships -and GOD-only-knows what else- that will be waiting at the other end as SLN ships drop helpless into a kill-zone? I don't think Kingsford -who is not stupid- would order that. He has to know or be told that Manticore has been dealing with defense in deep depth and strength of wormholes since before the war with Haven.

Brigade XO wrote:It would be interesting to see what the SLN would throw at one of the Lacoon II termini forces in order to push them off. Part of that would be what they thought they would actually accomplish beyond being able to say that they had cleared the hostile forces (can't really say pirates and they couldn't say "invaders" as that would really inflammatory and scary for the general public) from the terminus. They will have damaged but perhaps not actually destroyed any of the SEM warships but then what? They have "sealed" that threat of access to the SL?

They are not going to be able to claim they have "opened" the wormhole to traffic. No merchant is going to test using it as they can expect --at the very least and if they survive- that SEM would possibly send them back through or "strong suggest" that they take the hyperspace route back to SL space or just intern the ship and crew for the duration of hostilities. That is IF they survive comming through against whatever is prepared to receive an SLN WARSHIP comming through and eliminate it as a threat before it can open fire.

Can you imagine the situation and conversation on the bridge of the SLN warship that would be ordered to be the 1st (or 2nd through 15th) transit the wormhole and engage the SEM ships -and GOD-only-knows what else- that will be waiting at the other end as SLN ships drop helpless into a kill-zone? I don't think Kingsford -who is not stupid- would order that. He has to know or be told that Manticore has been dealing with defense in deep depth and strength of wormholes since before the war with Haven.

What's more, after you destroy or drive off the wormhole picket, what do you do? The RMN would be punished awfully charging through to retake it, but surely another wormhole in their control is a tolerable normal journey to it. The SLN is either faced with leaving a force there to die in turn, or fight for the possession of a terminus it will not even keep.

And the RMN is very likely to have a picket nearby to report on what remains to hold that terminus, so if you fight the nearby picket, "win", and leave, they will immediately retake it.

The SLN gets RMN targets in particular places in small numbers without the protection of a long way from hyperspace emergence to where they sit. It's good news for creating small battles where you can hold the field afterward and actually score kills or serious damage, albeit still getting pounded fairly hard yourselves. It's something they can spin into some sort of victory and "doing something" - probably much better than commerce raiding way out yonder against you-know-not-what - but it's unlikely to make much strategic difference. It's not going to restore the League's revenue or prevent the Verge going up in flames.

JeffEngel wrote:What's more, after you destroy or drive off the wormhole picket, what do you do? The RMN would be punished awfully charging through to retake it, but surely another wormhole in their control is a tolerable normal journey to it. The SLN is either faced with leaving a force there to die in turn, or fight for the possession of a terminus it will not even keep.

You mine the hell out of it, then leave a light covering force to deal with anyone trying to demine it.

cthia wrote:Okay, I was wondering, Filareta's Operation Raging Justice really didn't have a fair chance to succeed because there was no operational secrecy. Heck, the RMN knew the time, strength and even the name of the Operation.

What if operational secrecy would have been maintained? What would have been the outcome then?

And, the SLN only sent 427 ships. I've been admonished over an all-in SLN attack. Okay, but what if they really did throw 3000 ships at the RMN, and somehow were able to maintain operational secrecy? And this time they bring along CLACs.

Surprise! Let's get ready to rumbllllllllllle!!

No one, with the exception of Honor, really thought the RHN would roll the Battle of Manticore dice that way either.

****** *

I would really like to see the Solarian first string win a few battles with new technology, (setting the stage) leading up to a battle with Eighth fleet, then getting their asses spanked by Honor.

"My name is Sally. Mander to you, bitch!"

Did Honor just say that? That gal is really amped up!

One more thing to consider about this. It really doesn't take all that much effort for a member world to penetrate the security of the SLN. Considering that Beowulf is a member of the SL, there was definitely quite a few Beowulfean (Beowulfen? Beowulfer?) officers and crew in the Raging Justice fleet. Because of how close Beowulf is to Manticore, at least a handful of those crew members both knew what was going to happen and had close friends or family living in Manticore.

If the SLN had reason to believe that Beowulf would send the information about the attack to Manticore, they would have to build the fleet without any person from Beowulf or any other world (e.g. a daughter colony) that was on information sharing terms with Beowulf. The short notice transfer of every Beowuflean from hundreds of ships to shore duty would be a huge red flag to an even halfway competent intelligence service.