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flares

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flares
Post by Lord Skimper   » Tue May 20, 2014 3:58 am

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Given that ships with wedges show up well in the Honorverse could one turn off their wedge and just turn on a fake wedged flare? The missiles should see it and home in on it. One could have an oversized wedge keyhole sized platform that is expendable as a decoy with flare.

Like a keyhole but as a defensive version. Similar defensive weapons maybe have CM's also. Make it look real. A here I am shoot at me platform.

As for getting hit accidentally space is big and ships are small. Basically all ships are 1000 plus km apart. Even 10,000 km apart. A 200 metre wide 1.3 km long tube is a needle in a hay stack.
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Re: flares
Post by Whitecold   » Tue May 20, 2014 4:07 am

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The system is called Lorelei, a decoy drone which accurately mimics the signature of a superdreadnought.
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Re: flares
Post by lyonheart   » Tue May 20, 2014 6:58 am

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Hi WhiteCold,

What were all the previous decoys from OBS onward doing, if not playing with the ship's gravitic signature etc, given that's what the missile's are targeting?

Just curious. ;)

L


Whitecold wrote:The system is called Lorelei, a decoy drone which accurately mimics the signature of a superdreadnought.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: flares
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue May 20, 2014 7:14 am

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lyonheart wrote:What were all the previous decoys from OBS onward doing, if not playing with the ship's gravitic signature etc, given that's what the missile's are targeting?


From the description of Lorelei's first use against Adm Filareta, previous decoys either didn't have the energy budget to mimic SDs or they were tethered and drew power from the mother ship.

A Rising Thunder
Chapter 16
wrote:
Lorelei didn’t need to be in close proximity to anyone, and its emitters were much more powerful than Halo’s. The false targets Lorelei generated were still far weaker than those of genuine superdreadnoughts, but they could be interposed between those superdreadnoughts and the threat. More, they could be physically separated from the ships they were trying to protect … and the signatures they generated had been artfully camouflaged. Yes, they were weaker and dimmer than a true starship might have produced, but what they looked like was an all-up starship using its own EW systems to make its signature as weak and dim as possible.
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Re: flares
Post by lyonheart   » Tue May 20, 2014 7:22 am

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Hi Weird Harold,

Granted Lorelei's have a vastly greater energy budget, but that doesn't change any of my points, ie that what all the previous decoys have been doing the same thing albeit with less power.

L


Weird Harold wrote:
lyonheart wrote:What were all the previous decoys from OBS onward doing, if not playing with the ship's gravitic signature etc, given that's what the missile's are targeting?


From the description of Lorelei's first use against Adm Filareta, previous decoys either didn't have the energy budget to mimic SDs or they were tethered and drew power from the mother ship.

A Rising Thunder
Chapter 16
wrote:
Lorelei didn’t need to be in close proximity to anyone, and its emitters were much more powerful than Halo’s. The false targets Lorelei generated were still far weaker than those of genuine superdreadnoughts, but they could be interposed between those superdreadnoughts and the threat. More, they could be physically separated from the ships they were trying to protect … and the signatures they generated had been artfully camouflaged. Yes, they were weaker and dimmer than a true starship might have produced, but what they looked like was an all-up starship using its own EW systems to make its signature as weak and dim as possible.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: flares
Post by Whitecold   » Tue May 20, 2014 7:44 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi WhiteCold,

What were all the previous decoys from OBS onward doing, if not playing with the ship's gravitic signature etc, given that's what the missile's are targeting?

Just curious. ;)

L


Whitecold wrote:The system is called Lorelei, a decoy drone which accurately mimics the signature of a superdreadnought.


I know there were decoys before, and they tried to mimic gravitic as well as other signatures. I just quoted the most advanced system, as it is the only one we even know the name, and it is more or less what Skimper proposed.
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Re: flares
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue May 20, 2014 9:27 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
lyonheart wrote:What were all the previous decoys from OBS onward doing, if not playing with the ship's gravitic signature etc, given that's what the missile's are targeting?


From the description of Lorelei's first use against Adm Filareta, previous decoys either didn't have the energy budget to mimic SDs or they were tethered and drew power from the mother ship.
Go back far enough and you're right, see the trick Honor and Mark Brentworth pulled at 4th Yeltson, where Brentworth's BCs used tractored decoys to mimic Gryphon-class SDs to bluff Theisman and LePic into breaking off. However we've already seen free flying, micro-fusion powered, (and missile tube launchable) ghost rider drones mimic SDs.

Ashes of Victory wrote:BatDiv 62's internal launchers were busy firing something besides shipkillers. They were firing more electronic warfare drones that took station on the formation and began to thresh the Peeps' targeting systems with jamming, and others that took on the appearance of more superdreadnoughts, more battlecruisers, more heavy cruisers, all beckoning to the Peep's sensors.

Such decoys had always been available, but only in limited numbers. The power required to sustain a convincing false sensor image of a warship in engagement range was so high that a drone required direct power transmission from the ship it was protecting. That meant standard practice had always been to deploy decoys only on tractors and in low numbers. But the same technology which had provided the power plants for the RMN's FTL recon drones had been brought to bear on the decoy problem by the R&D types responsible for Project Ghost Rider, and the result—one of the results—was a completely independent unit with an endurance of up to twenty minutes from internal power alone, depending on the strength of the sensor image it had to duplicate. And one that could be fired from one of the new capital missile tubes, at that. Now BatDiv 62's internal launchers went to rapid fire, spewing them out, multiplying the Peeps' targets catastrophically with each broadside.
I assume that Lorelei is a significantly enhanced version of those Buttercup-era Ghost Rider free flying decoys.

Maybe it's got much longer endurance, significantly higher power budgets, is much more survivable (to decoy multiple waves), or other improvements. But just the ability to free fly a decoy off on internal power had existed for at least 8 years by the time Fileretta blundered into the Manticoran home system.
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Re: flares
Post by lyonheart   » Tue May 20, 2014 10:56 am

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Hi Jonathan_S,

Thank you for the example.

I think the energy budget for BC decoys to simulate SD engines back around '05-'06 is pretty impressive myself.

But doesn't that make the free flying decoy types over 15 years old? ;)

L


Jonathan_S wrote:**quote="Weird Harold"**[quote="lyonheart"]What were all the previous decoys from OBS onward doing, if not playing with the ship's gravitic signature etc, given that's what the missile's are targeting?**/quote**

From the description of Lorelei's first use against Adm Filareta, previous decoys either didn't have the energy budget to mimic SDs or they were tethered and drew power from the mother ship.
Go back far enough and you're right, see the trick Honor and Mark Brentworth pulled at 4th Yeltson, where Brentworth's BCs used tractored decoys to mimic Gryphon-class SDs to bluff Theisman and LePic into breaking off. However we've already seen free flying, micro-fusion powered, (and missile tube launchable) ghost rider drones mimic SDs.

Ashes of Victory wrote:BatDiv 62's internal launchers were busy firing something besides shipkillers. They were firing more electronic warfare drones that took station on the formation and began to thresh the Peeps' targeting systems with jamming, and others that took on the appearance of more superdreadnoughts, more battlecruisers, more heavy cruisers, all beckoning to the Peep's sensors.

Such decoys had always been available, but only in limited numbers. The power required to sustain a convincing false sensor image of a warship in engagement range was so high that a drone required direct power transmission from the ship it was protecting. That meant standard practice had always been to deploy decoys only on tractors and in low numbers. But the same technology which had provided the power plants for the RMN's FTL recon drones had been brought to bear on the decoy problem by the R&D types responsible for Project Ghost Rider, and the result—one of the results—was a completely independent unit with an endurance of up to twenty minutes from internal power alone, depending on the strength of the sensor image it had to duplicate. And one that could be fired from one of the new capital missile tubes, at that. Now BatDiv 62's internal launchers went to rapid fire, spewing them out, multiplying the Peeps' targets catastrophically with each broadside.
I assume that Lorelei is a significantly enhanced version of those Buttercup-era Ghost Rider free flying decoys.

Maybe it's got much longer endurance, significantly higher power budgets, is much more survivable (to decoy multiple waves), or other improvements. But just the ability to free fly a decoy off on internal power had existed for at least 8 years by the time Fileretta blundered into the Manticoran home system.[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: flares
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue May 20, 2014 2:23 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I assume that Lorelei is a significantly enhanced version of those Buttercup-era Ghost Rider free flying decoys.

Maybe it's got much longer endurance, significantly higher power budgets, is much more survivable (to decoy multiple waves), or other improvements.


I didn't quote the full discussion of Lorelei from ART. Two things that weren't in the bit I quoted:

1) Lorelei is the one of the last fruits of the Ghost Rider program and is in short supply because of the Yawata Strike taking out the production lines almost as soon as they got set up.

2) Lorelei has an even more advanced AI than the Apollo control missile.

Lorelei is probably more capable than Skimpy proposed, but it seems capable of being used as a "flare." Older independent decoys are probably capable of shorter duration use as "flares;" possibly enough to allow a ship to hide by "running silent."
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: flares
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue May 20, 2014 4:42 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Jonathan_S,

Thank you for the example.

I think the energy budget for BC decoys to simulate SD engines back around '05-'06 is pretty impressive myself.

But doesn't that make the free flying decoy types over 15 years old? ;)

L
Well, I guess if you're counting real years since publication :D.
In Universe though BatDiv 62's fight in the Elric System's was only about 8 years ago (1914 PD)


4th Yeltsin (1907 PD / pub-1995 AD) used tethered decoys, presumably on beamed power, and they still had a finite life before burning out.
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