Should Honor really have been charged?

cthia wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

That is not an excuse to the laws and bylines of OSHA. Every disaster is explained away beginning with a big fat 'IF.' And people are dying, all over the country. Money is more important than lives it seems. It doesn't hit home, until it is your child. And YOU are not going to want to hear IF!!!

OSHA would have said hell no to that field trip. And someone would have been dusting off their resume for asking.

Okay, understand that I am not going to debate this with you. The project area was considered safe by all of the individuals with knowledge of the construction materials, technique, and design. NO ONE --- with the possible exception of Steadholder Mueller --- would have allowed those kids into an area which could have collapsed without deliberate sabotage of both the materials and the design specifications. That's it, period, end of story.

I have had people explain to me that "The Royal Manticoran Navy can't do it that way because the Royal British Navy didn't do it that way." I have had people lecture me on the physical properties of synthetic materials of my own invention. I have had people tell me "Honor wouldn't have done that; it's against her principles." In the final analysis, however, I know what's happening in my fictional universe better than anyone else does.

Finally, even assuming there had been some reason to bar the kids from the site, the "OSHA" rules in use would have been those of Meuller Steading" which just happened to have on-site inspectors and enforcement people all over the damned place and who --- as I believe I've already pointed out --- signed off on the visit because it was safe in the absence of sabotage by coldblooded mass murderers.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the end of the thread.

Cthia, don't think of it as one gigantic construction project. Think of it as construction of an entire interconnected supermodern town. Multiple buildings are being constructed, each of which will connect together with walkways and passages. Some buildings have been completed, and provide a view of the buildings still under construction a mile away. The completed buildings have already been inspected and have passed code. They are considered perfectly safe, by both the public and OSHA. A school trip visits that building, and suddenly it collapses.

That is the comparison you should be considering.

By the way, the described 1.5 mile dome is about only 50% larger than the proposed Winooskie dome, which was commercially practical if heating oil was more than half of the current cost. The Winooskie dome would have been a mile across, and covered the city of that name. Electric cars are, of course, much less challenging or esoteric than they were 40 years ago.

In terms of parts to be assembled, the domes seem to be simpler inside than buildings, so one might wonder if the project is actually more grandiose than the Kilometer Tower, now approaching construction.

Also, these people have advanced a great deal in computational methods, so things we could not do safely are likely not a challenge for them.

cthia wrote:SNIP

A couple of hours ago I received an email. "Uncle, why were those Middle School students allowed within the yellow lines of the Mueller School Dome Construction site?"

Oh shit! All of you sure you'd like her to join the forums?

SNIP

Let us view this positively. In a couple of decades, RunsForCelery may want a senior co-author, someone really bright and perceptive, to take over finishing the next 30 Honor Harrington books, and the next 20 Safehold books. Creating potential recruiting opportunities may be viewed as a favor to the Dread Author.

cthia wrote:Oh shit! All of you sure you'd like her to join the forums?

Of course.

Questions should always be asked.

cthia wrote:Perhaps Honor was responsible after all.

Only in a sense so broad that it uses a very hardcore feudalist logic, ie where anything that is "yours" doing damage to someone else makes you directly responsible.

AFA anyone knows(by what the books tells us), Honor had not done anything wrong, nor had her company done anything wrong.

My guess is that Grayson simply does not have the kind of safety regulations of today.

And my guess about why, is due to the strong streak of pioneering sense in the culture, i expect noone actually really thought about it to the point where it seemed like a bad idea.

The logic probably went along the lines of "as long as they´re nowhere where there is actual ongoing work it should be fine".
And normally that is extremely likely to be true. As they would normally have been in no more danger than getting hit by a freak accident. Under normal circumstances, it would have been more dangerous to make breakfast in your kitchen.

Should they have been on the construction site? No. No matter how big the site was, you don´t let the public have access until it´s finished and the whole place has been checked out to make sure there are no hidden surprises or tools or gear left.

But the guilt stills falls squarely and completely on the necks of those who conducted sabotage.

Honor and associates only mistake was to provide her enemies with the opportunity to attack the children. And they had no real reason to expect such, or any way to predict it.

cthia wrote:I am willing to bet, that there are many in this forum who have worked at complex sites. There is always, ALWAYS unforeseen problems. Deadlines are adhered to by solving these problems in oftentimes unsafe fashions. On a large site you may often hear "You are not supposed to be using this access for that heavy piece of machinery!" But an OSHA representative is never always onsite, and the schedule has fallen weeks behind and overbudget. Safety often becomes a second concern. Complacency lives on every worksite. OSHA teaches that!

Oh dear, i just simply cannot resist posting this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oB6DN5dYWo
It LOOKS like a safety instruction video, at first.

Forklift driver Klaus. Way too funny with how macabre it gets.

I fear that your actualy using the incorrect analogy. Ever see the Skyway in Chicago IL? IF not, look it up, its a really giant bridge. For that matter, notice how when thay work on the roads, thay do not close the road, only the section thay are working on. The kids where in the safe section of the dome, a compleated area. About as safe as you could be withen a couple miles of the construction zone really. The dangerious stuff was happening a mile away. If it was not for the deliberate sabatage then dome structure could have withstood a heck of a lot of damage before becoming unstable, or being a risk.
Errr, think about the buildings thay use in the honorverse as well, a couple hundred storys tall, think about it, you could have a building 3 miles tall no problem. How do you deal with it if one of thoes things fall? Is OSHA going to kick everyone living withen 3 miles of the building out of there homes when its being built?
Safty regs are designed around the physics that have to be delt with, and for insidents that have occured. Cranes have collapsed in the US, heck, look it up on youtube. Thus the reason for making safty regs to deal with a crane falure. Now, a continuation of that sort of regs, would have kept people away from where thay where working, where thay where lifting the panels and all that, not out from areas that where compleated and totaly safe.

Oh Sorry Runs, I just could not let that stand. Sounds like a collage grad, no real world experence.

Two issues to point out aside from the fact that it is fiction.

Cranes routinely operate in densely populated urban areas amongst preexisting structures where it is not practical to maintain a safety exclusion zone that exceeds the height of the crane. In many cases, portions of the boom on a tower crane will swing over adjacent buildings or unsecured pedestrian areas.

Take a look around the next time you see a building under construction.

The relevant safety regulation is that the crane not allow loads to be outside of the safety area.

While the equivalent of a counter gravity crane was in operation on the sight of the dome, this was not a crane accident. This was the result of a structural failure of a completed section of the dome that allowed a glazing panel that had already been installed to fall.

I was under the impression that RFC had ended this thread. Apparently I assimilated the strong words incorrectly. My apology.

Alyeska wrote:I fear that your actualy using the incorrect analogy. Ever see the Skyway in Chicago IL? IF not, look it up, its a really giant bridge. For that matter, notice how when thay work on the roads, thay do not close the road, only the section thay are working on. The kids where in the safe section of the dome, a compleated area. About as safe as you could be withen a couple miles of the construction zone really. The dangerious stuff was happening a mile away. If it was not for the deliberate sabatage then dome structure could have withstood a heck of a lot of damage before becoming unstable, or being a risk.
Errr, think about the buildings thay use in the honorverse as well, a couple hundred storys tall, think about it, you could have a building 3 miles tall no problem. How do you deal with it if one of thoes things fall? Is OSHA going to kick everyone living withen 3 miles of the building out of there homes when its being built?
Safty regs are designed around the physics that have to be delt with, and for insidents that have occured. Cranes have collapsed in the US, heck, look it up on youtube. Thus the reason for making safty regs to deal with a crane falure. Now, a continuation of that sort of regs, would have kept people away from where thay where working, where thay where lifting the panels and all that, not out from areas that where compleated and totaly safe.

Oh Sorry Runs, I just could not let that stand. Sounds like a collage grad, no real world experence.

Ever see the Skyway in Chicago IL?

Indeed I have. And from vantage points that would make you cringe! Several times. Structures of this type adhere to regular examination and analysis, especially after earthquakes. Next time you travel one of these bridges, notice the people who most likely are there, carrying out their mission completely oblivious to you.

I have seen many bridges of this country from likewise vantage points. Being Lab Manager with such a large widely known Geotechnical firm I have seen more bridges than you know exist. I had the rare good fortune of spending several, though non-consecutive, months onsite of the construction of The World's Tallest Suspension Bridge... MILLAU, France — Stretching higher than the Eiffel Tower, the Viaduc de Millau Bridge "is a marvel of art and architecture." I was invited to "come check it out" by a friend and former classmate that I'd met in the states. I arrived the summer after the "first stone" which was in the previous December, although I was actually onsite (soils tests) before the laying of the first stone. I've since visited the site well over a dozen times.

For that matter, notice how when thay work on the roads, thay do not close the road, only the section thay are working on.

How can I not notice, being submerged 'rags to rivets' deep within this world. And I do not like it. The unsuspecting public's lives are risked every day. Often they die and/or are severely injured.

The dangerious stuff was happening a mile away.

You are a quintessential member of a select group of many people whose rights to safety should be protected. Just like you, how could most people expect to know that the majority of these sites utilize equipment, that if irresponsibly, improperly, complacently, jokingly, haphazardly handled, could kill well in excess of a mile.

think about the buildings thay use in the honorverse as well, a couple hundred storys tall, think about it, you could have a building 3 miles tall no problem. How do you deal with it if one of thoes things fall? Is OSHA going to kick everyone living withen 3 miles of the building out of there homes when its being built?

That question and many more similar, my fellow human, is being asked at many empanelled groups of OSHA and related safety experts throughout the country. And the discussions can get rather heated. I am afraid the answers are left up to lobbyists and elected officials. Do I personally think a three mile section of a city should be closed down if it falls outside the real calculated safety zone? You Damn Right I Do!!!

Let's get something straight here. Unsuspecting people are dying. If it is criminal to leave a manhole cover disengaged because of an unsuspecting representative of the public you, me, our loved ones then it should likewise be criminal to expose the same unsuspecting public to even worse hazards and dangers simply because of logistics and convenience = cost = money. Hence my earlier post that lives oftentimes seem less valuable than money.

At the very least, as many unsuspecting people should be made suspecting as humanly possible. Television broad casts, fliers, video, etc. There is something criminal to rolling the dice over someone's head and they not even know it. I would like not even one die to be rolled over mine, or my loved ones and friends. I would like the same for yours as well. The public should be given a chance to choose, whether they wish to drive an extra hour or so to avoid the risk. Let it be their decision, at least. It pisses me off to no end, that at certain places in this country at any given time a family can be out at a public gathering, eating, dancing, spending quality time with their kids and the next minute witnessing, like Adam Gerrick, them being crushed to death! That should never happen!

What's it going to take, hmmm, that one, media inspired, jaw-dropping unprecedented DISASTER that kills several bus loads of kids that were nowhere outside the true danger zone?

Cranes have collapsed in the US, heck, look it up on youtube.

No need to. I've included examples in the accompanying reference. But...that crap you see on youtube is nothing compared to what I've seen. To what you'll never see. To what many at OSHA have seen.

I've seen people die right in front of me. In ways that will make the most iron-gutted puke his genitals. Complacency. People's eye-sockets, elbows and other joints blown out like tires from powerful electrical currents. You never really can ever forget the smell of electrically burned flesh. Or people impaled by rebar, from falling off of scaffolding. Hands, fingers, limbs cleanly and instantly severed. I have seen much.

The kids where in the safe section of the dome, a compleated area.

OSHA's take on it, and mine as well after 18 years in the business since graduation. Is that on an uncompleted site, there are no safe areas. As long as humans are employed there will be dangers.

You may not be aware of it. But the Demon Murphy, of Murphy's Law, has remained in business for so long because he made his fortune at Construction sites. That is an inside joke. But serious and poignant. Murphy sends his kids to college at CSU. Construction Site University. These are real life inside jokes.

People simply are not aware of the true dangers. And because cities are allowed to place people in danger does not make it right. OSHA and other entities, and yes yours truly as well, have seen video that is appalling. I've known many people to walk out of such classes. On many occasions...I led.

People are just not aware of the dangers. I once saw video of the aftermath of what can happen to people following too closely to 18-wheelers. Drafting. One incident involved a man decapitated because a brake shoe from the semi dislodged and fell under the rear tires and the torque propelled it through the windshield of the vehicle behind. Decapitation. Because of that, I never trail a semi. People should be given a similar opportunity by being made privy to construction site dangers.

Oh Sorry Runs, I just could not let that stand. Sounds like a collage grad, no real world experience.

I suppose not, if over 18 years doesn't qualify to you. If the fact that I've had more dates with Construction sites than you've been on a date.

Edit:
The funny thing is. Many workers on such sites are given hazard pay. Because of the hazards of working such sites. Yet the unsuspecting public, who are allowed, even expected, to carry on their lives within reach of the same dangers of such sites...

Well at least give them hazard pay as well.

cthia, I got thinking about it and I realized something. While the domes themselves are relatively new at the time of the Mueller Middle School dome collapse, there are literally centuries of data on the materials involved. We don't have that kind of data on the materials we use in modern construction projects.

There is a lot of discussion about how the support members are sitting on bedrock in a hole back-filled by a substance that is tougher than the bedrock. There is a lot of textev of the gigantic towers that are routinely built all over the Honorverse with those materials and construction techniques (IIRC the admiralty house was called modest at 100 floors in one of the books). So the in universe evidence for the trip being considers safe would be there.

You're coming from an assumption that what happened could happen accidentally. It is very clear in the books that there are controls in place that would prevent it from happening accidentally. The profile in the hole has to be changed then changed back before the next operator uses it, the ceremacrete crew checks the hole and has to ignore the different profile, and the supervisor/crew have to allow the fusing process to be only partially completed. The amount of checks involved in that process would make it so remotely unlikely as to be practically impossible to occur on accident. The only way for that collapse to have happened for MANY people to intentionally create the circumstances.

From what you've said, you seem to only look at what could happen and not the likely hood of it happening. There is a huge difference between safety precautions when under/near a load on a crane, or working with/around heavy equipment, or with/around electricity, or with/around steam, etc... and being near a completed portion of a massive complex project. The "safety" precautions you've advocated are beyond ridiculous, given the limits you seem to be setting on the chances of something happening there is no where that is safe enough to live.

Donnachaidh wrote:cthia, I got thinking about it and I realized something. While the domes themselves are relatively new at the time of the Mueller Middle School dome collapse, there are literally centuries of data on the materials involved. We don't have that kind of data on the materials we use in modern construction projects.

There is a lot of discussion about how the support members are sitting on bedrock in a hole back-filled by a substance that is tougher than the bedrock. There is a lot of textev of the gigantic towers that are routinely built all over the Honorverse with those materials and construction techniques (IIRC the admiralty house was called modest at 100 floors in one of the books). So the in universe evidence for the trip being considers safe would be there.

You're coming from an assumption that what happened could happen accidentally. It is very clear in the books that there are controls in place that would prevent it from happening accidentally. The profile in the hole has to be changed then changed back before the next operator uses it, the ceremacrete crew checks the hole and has to ignore the different profile, and the supervisor/crew have to allow the fusing process to be only partially completed. The amount of checks involved in that process would make it so remotely unlikely as to be practically impossible to occur on accident. The only way for that collapse to have happened for MANY people to intentionally create the circumstances.

From what you've said, you seem to only look at what could happen and not the likely hood of it happening. There is a huge difference between safety precautions when under/near a load on a crane, or working with/around heavy equipment, or with/around electricity, or with/around steam, etc... and being near a completed portion of a massive complex project. The "safety" precautions you've advocated are beyond ridiculous, given the limits you seem to be setting on the chances of something happening there is no where that is safe enough to live.

Thanks for the intelligent exchange Donna. I really appreciate that.

Rarely is the engineering soundness of such projects at fault. But there are many occasions where the engineering was at fault. I never challenged the strength of the materials.
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Note: Strength of Materials is a very serious, and sore subject to many engineering students. I've known students to flunk out because they couldn't pass this one course. Just a piece of info.
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However, Safety experts have realized, probably for centuries..."best laid plans of mice and men." Just because flawless plans call for flawless, appropriate materials does not automagically guarantee their use. You would be surprised at the number of criminal prosecutions because of improper materials substituted to hold down costs, or for other asinine reasons. I am aware of situations where low-grade and/or faulty materials were used. Sometimes they were criminally used. Sometimes by accident, or by someone not knowledgeable enough making a call he's not qualified to do.

Shit happens. On construction sites, shit happens a lot. In fact, it is expected to happen. Every site requires shit hats, which are called hard hats, for the really heavy turds falling from the sky.

Worker injuries, illnesses and fatalities

4,628 workers were killed on the job in 2012 [BLS revised 2012 workplace fatality data*] (3.4 per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers) – on average, 89 a week or more than 12 deaths every day. (This is the second lowest total since the fatal injury census was first conducted in 1992.)

Most of these deaths are operator error, ignorance, improper training etc. But they all conspire to make construction sites very dangerous. It is my opinion Donna, that those kids should never have been alllowed onsite. Because The Demon Murphy has a VIP pass! That may include sabotage. And I understand and acknowledge that unfair and unrealistic safety precautions may be implied. But unfair and unrealistic to who? The same arguments are being used every day.

All I'm saying, is that my nieces and your nieces should be able to stop in for a cone of ice-cream and actually be as safe as they feel.

What I don't accept is that citizens are allowed to live, and expected to work, within these areas without being properly forewarned.

I simply don't think, that construction sites, an area where an average of 12 deaths a day occur, is any place to entertain a field trip. IMHOHO (In my humblest of humble opinions.)
Especially after 18 years of witnessing first hand the idiotic shit caused by idiotic people. I have a right to knowingly risk my own ass, but not yours.

From what you've said, you seem to only look at what could happen and not the likely hood of it happening.

After 18 years in the profession, everything falls under the bailiwick of 'likely to happen.' I have actually shed tears at sites where I've seen innocent people unknowingly 'living.'


https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html