Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests

Should Honor really have been charged?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri May 09, 2014 2:37 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

cthia wrote:It's quite alright if you didn't read it all. It was included as a reference and a convenience.

Of course the children were not crushed by cranes. In a counter-grav culture? Cranes, and the enormous mass and dangers they represent, was only included as a modern day analogy. That construction site was much too dangerous for any field trip. The students should never have been allowed onsite. IMHO

crewdude48 wrote:First, I have to say as a desclamer, I stopped reading at the point where you bolded the paragraph titles. I honestly tried, but I just couldn't make my self. Were they directly from some sort of government regulations?

As for your question. They weren't crushed by a crane. The kids were standing under a completed section of the dome, where they would have been perfectly safe if the dome had been constructed to spec. The fact of the matter is that where they were standing was probably safer than out in the open. From the descriptions of the work site, the counter grav cranes were picking up these HUGE panels, and flying them to where they were being installed. The odds of a crane's CG failing or a failure in the tractor or claw causing the panel to drop were much higher than a dome collapse. Assuming no sabotage, the only way for them to be safer would be for them to stay home.

Also, there is no way in hell that the Grayson OSHA requirement were written with counter grav or huge domes in mind. If the safety zone around a crane is defined as the height of the crane plus a safety margin, it would be largely useless for a crane that is 3 meters tall, but can fly.



The kids at the school site were standing under a completely finished portion of a dome which, when finished, would have been the better part of a mile and a half in diameter. They were being carefully kept there by their guides, teachers, and chaperones. Had the materials in the site met code standard, and had the footings for the support pylons not been deliberately sabotaged, the area in which they were standing would have stood firm even in the face of a major earthquake. I apologize for not stating all of this in detail in the book, but I thought it was relatively clear from context (especially when Skydomes begins analyzing the video) and that readers would recognize that Graysons are not going to casually risk the lives of children . . . which was, in fact, part and parcel of the reason public's reaction to the collapse was so virulent. Their initial thought was that risks must have been taken for the kids to be exposed to the disaster when it occurred; only later did the fury over the substandard materials come fully to the fore.

There were no cranes, no panels, no operatinghieavy equipment, and no structural members being manipulated by cranes within a half mile of them and --- I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by roseandheather   » Fri May 09, 2014 3:02 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm
Location: Republic of Haven

runsforcelery wrote:
The kids at the school site were standing under a completely finished portion of a dome which, when finished, would have been the better part of a mile and a half in diameter. They were being carefully kept there by their guides, teachers, and chaperones. Had the materials in the site met code standard, and had the footings for the support pylons not been deliberately sabotaged, the area in which they were standing would have stood firm even in the face of a major earthquake. I apologize for not stating all of this in detail in the book, but I thought it was relatively clear from context (especially when Skydomes begins analyzing the video) and that readers would recognize that Graysons are not going to casually risk the lives of children . . . which was, in fact, part and parcel of the reason public's reaction to the collapse was so virulent. Their initial thought was that risks must have been taken for the kids to be exposed to the disaster when it occurred; only later did the fury over the substandard materials come fully to the fore.

There were no cranes, no panels, no operatinghieavy equipment, and no structural members being manipulated by cranes within a half mile of them and --- I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.


See also: "The Problems With Applying Modern Standards to A Future Society", example #7685. :lol:
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by cthia   » Fri May 09, 2014 3:31 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

runsforcelery wrote:
The kids at the school site were standing under a completely finished portion of a dome which, when finished, would have been the better part of a mile and a half in diameter. They were being carefully kept there by their guides, teachers, and chaperones. Had the materials in the site met code standard, and had the footings for the support pylons not been deliberately sabotaged, the area in which they were standing would have stood firm even in the face of a major earthquake. I apologize for not stating all of this in detail in the book, but I thought it was relatively clear from context (especially when Skydomes begins analyzing the video) and that readers would recognize that Graysons are not going to casually risk the lives of children . . . which was, in fact, part and parcel of the reason public's reaction to the collapse was so virulent. Their initial thought was that risks must have been taken for the kids to be exposed to the disaster when it occurred; only later did the fury over the substandard materials come fully to the fore.

There were no cranes, no panels, no operatinghieavy equipment, and no structural members being manipulated by cranes within a half mile of them and --- I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

Again, the example of cranes was just...an analogy. As close to modern day as I could get, to put the reader in the right frame of mind.

Of course I do not have the original plans of Grayson Sky Domes. But in general, completed sections of structures are not considered wholly safe under the guidelines of OSHA, as pertains to the original plans of the structure, if other sections are to be later attached and before said structures have been properly tested.

Until construction is completed a construction site is considered off limits to the public. Even unto workers who are not properly attired. There is always an element of danger on unfinished construction sites. I am sure we all agree there. The amount of risk seems to increase dramatically with the complexity of the site. That is usually the domain of The Risk Manager, which is growingly becoming a defunct title. Grayson Sky Domes represented not only a very complex operation, but one of also new design, new technologies, and new processes, bringing along with it new unforeseen problems.

I am willing to bet, that there are many in this forum who have worked at complex sites. There is always, ALWAYS unforeseen problems. Deadlines are adhered to by solving these problems in oftentimes unsafe fashions. On a large site you may often hear "You are not supposed to be using this access for that heavy piece of machinery!" But an OSHA representative is never always onsite, and the schedule has fallen weeks behind and overbudget. Safety often becomes a second concern. Complacency lives on every worksite. OSHA teaches that!

There are so many different entities in and out of the average site. Checks and balances are being performed and are at various stages of implementation and completion. I am Lab Manager for a huge Geotechnical company. I once examined a very important retaining wall for a school's new gym. There were serious hairline fractures. Those fractures were later determined to also be the cause of substandard materials used. Shady concrete company workers will add water, or even trash within the mixing process of concrete trucks to stretch the load delivered. Somewhere between concrete company and construction site the ordered concrete to water ratio was changed. This weakens the concrete. Thick concrete is difficult to work with, but is required in mission critical situations. Such as power plants, nuclear power plants. Bridges. Etc. Core samples are taken at strategic intervals to check the concrete. That's my job. A CBR, California Bearing Ratio machine is used to break the core sample, testing its strength. Different sections of huge structures are completed almost simulataneously. They are not tested simultaneously. It's a time consuming process. The core samples have to be soaked in a bath for several days before testing. Just because a wall is standing, does NOT imply safety.

Now I know that Grayson Sky Domes does not use concrete, but the same limitations apply. Weak substandard materials is a recipe for disaster. The site is unsafe until completed. Even then tests are being run on load-bearing structures.

Those kids should never have been allowed on such an inherently potentially dangerous site. Not even one kid, much less a group of them. If present day OSHA regs would have been followed, that would not have happened!

Edit:
One other thing I forgot that always happens at every site. MVP's will come and go during various stages of completion. Fifty percent of them never want to use hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles, ear protection, etc. They don't understand, that even though they are visiting relatively safe sections of the site, access to the safe section almost always involves crossing into an unsafe section. They are not lowered by helicopter. Did the children at any point enter through an even more unsafe area...temporarily? I'd be very surprised if no. Unless they were aircared in. And were the kids wearing any of that protective gear? Hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles...

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by Donnachaidh   » Fri May 09, 2014 3:58 pm

Donnachaidh
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1018
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:11 pm

There are a few things that seem to have been overlooked:

1) There is no project in reality that is to scale with the dome projects, not even remotely. The only person that can know how those projects are managed is the author and he has explained that due to the structural strengths involved and the scale of the project ("...no operating heavy equipment...within a half mile of them") it would make sense that completed sections are considered safe.

2) Any dome is going to have many entrance/exit points, the children and their minders would have used ones in the completed sections.

3) It is mentioned in the book that they used a partial depth sampling technique on the ceramacrete but would be switching to a full depth technique because of what happened.

4) At the point that the incident happens, the domes aren't very experimental, it is implicated that several had already been finished.

5) It's a story.

6) Going back to the title of this thread, the charges against Honor were politics/PR driven.

cthia wrote:Again, the example of cranes was just...an analogy. As close to modern day as I could get, to put the reader in the right frame of mind.

Of course I do not have the original plans of Grayson Sky Domes. But in general, completed sections of structures are not considered wholly safe under the guidelines of OSHA, as pertains to the original plans of the structure, if other sections are to be later attached and before said structures have been properly tested.

Until construction is completed a construction site is considered off limits to the public. Even unto workers who are not properly attired. There is always an element of danger on unfinished construction sites. I am sure we all agree there. The amount of risk seems to increase dramatically with the complexity of the site. That is usually the domain of The Risk Manager, which is growingly becoming a defunct title. Grayson Sky Domes represented not only a very complex operation, but one of also new design, new technologies, and new processes, bringing along with it new unforeseen problems.

I am willing to bet, that there are many in this forum who have worked at complex sites. There is always, ALWAYS unforeseen problems. Deadlines are adhered to by solving these problems in oftentimes unsafe fashions. On a large site you may often hear "You are not supposed to be using this access for that heavy piece of machinery!" But an OSHA representative is never always onsite, and the schedule has fallen weeks behind and overbudget. Safety often becomes a second concern. Complacency lives on every worksite. OSHA teaches that!

There are so many different entities in and out of the average site. Checks and balances are being performed and are at various stages of implementation and completion. I am Lab Manager for a huge Geotechnical company. I once examined a very important retaining wall for a school's new gym. There were serious hairline fractures. Those fractures were later determined to also be the cause of substandard materials used. Shady concrete company workers will add water, or even trash within the mixing process of concrete trucks to stretch the load delivered. Somewhere between concrete company and construction site the ordered concrete to water ratio was changed. This weakens the concrete. Thick concrete is difficult to work with, but is required in mission critical situations. Such as power plants, nuclear power plants. Bridges. Etc. Core samples are taken at strategic intervals to check the concrete. That's my job. A CBR, California Bearing Ratio machine is used to break the core sample, testing its strength. Different sections of huge structures are completed almost simulataneously. They are not tested simultaneously. It's a time consuming process. The core samples have to be soaked in a bath for several days before testing. Just because a wall is standing, does NOT imply safety.

Now I know that Grayson Sky Domes does not use concrete, but the same limitations apply. Weak substandard materials is a recipe for disaster. The site is unsafe until completed. Even then tests are being run on load-bearing structures.

Those kids should never have been allowed on such an inherently potentially dangerous site. Not even one kid, much less a group of them. If present day OSHA regs would have been followed, that would not have happened!

Edit:
One other thing I forgot that always happens at every site. MVP's will come and go during various stages of completion. Fifty percent of them never want to hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles, ear protection, etc. They don't understand, that even though they are visiting relatively safe sections of the site, access to the safe section almost always involves crossing into an unsafe section. They are not lowered by helicopter. Did the children at any point enter through an even more unsafe area...temporarily? I'd be very surprised if no. Unless they were aircared in. And were the kids wearing any of that protective gear? Hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles...
_____________________________________________________
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by cthia   » Fri May 09, 2014 4:09 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

runsforcelery wrote:I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

That is not an excuse to the laws and bylines of OSHA. Every disaster is explained away beginning with a big fat 'IF.' And people are dying, all over the country. Money is more important than lives it seems. It doesn't hit home, until it is your child. And YOU are not going to want to hear IF!!!

OSHA would have said hell no to that field trip. And someone would have been dusting off their resume for asking.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by cthia   » Fri May 09, 2014 4:34 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Donnachaidh wrote:There are a few things that seem to have been overlooked:

1) There is no project in reality that is to scale with the dome projects, not even remotely. The only person that can know how those projects are managed is the author and he has explained that due to the structural strengths involved and the scale of the project ("...no operating heavy equipment...within a half mile of them") it would make sense that completed sections are considered safe.

2) Any dome is going to have many entrance/exit points, the children and their minders would have used ones in the completed sections.

3) It is mentioned in the book that they used a partial depth sampling technique on the ceramacrete but would be switching to a full depth technique because of what happened.

4) At the point that the incident happens, the domes aren't very experimental, it is implicated that several had already been finished.

5) It's a story.

6) Going back to the title of this thread, the charges against Honor were politics/PR driven.


Exactly Donna. There is no project to this scale. Therefore there are way too many possible unknowns. I am willing to bet that there were more than a few serious injuries among the workers, maybe even deaths, if reality was a part of it. Guess how many people died building the Empire State Building?

The book says no heavy equipment? And proper exits and entrances were set aside?

Yes, a few Domes had been completed, but the process would still be considered new. Unforeseen problems would still be in the process of being solved possibly for years. Some may never be properly solved. From a safety standpoint!

Well, all of that sounds good, on paper. Which is always the last thing consulted, after the disaster, just like Adam Gerrick. Your plans are only as good as your Supervisors, Foremans, Construction Managers and workers.

If they wanted to, an OSHA representative can issue safety faults all day long at any given site! If they did, however, completion schedules would never be achieved.

Better than that, OSHA rarely just shows up. Just like Health inspectors at restaurants, they call ahead. Why do you think that is?!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri May 09, 2014 4:50 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

That is not an excuse to the laws and bylines of OSHA. Every disaster is explained away beginning with a big fat 'IF.' And people are dying, all over the country. Money is more important than lives it seems. It doesn't hit home, until it is your child. And YOU are not going to want to hear IF!!!

OSHA would have said hell no to that field trip. And someone would have been dusting off their resume for asking.



Okay, understand that I am not going to debate this with you. The project area was considered safe by all of the individuals with knowledge of the construction materials, technique, and design. NO ONE --- with the possible exception of Steadholder Mueller --- would have allowed those kids into an area which could have collapsed without deliberate sabotage of both the materials and the design specifications. That's it, period, end of story.

I have had people explain to me that "The Royal Manticoran Navy can't do it that way because the Royal British Navy didn't do it that way." I have had people lecture me on the physical properties of synthetic materials of my own invention. I have had people tell me "Honor wouldn't have done that; it's against her principles." In the final analysis, however, I know what's happening in my fictional universe better than anyone else does.

Finally, even assuming there had been some reason to bar the kids from the site, the "OSHA" rules in use would have been those of Meuller Steading" which just happened to have on-site inspectors and enforcement people all over the damned place and who --- as I believe I've already pointed out --- signed off on the visit because it was safe in the absence of sabotage by coldblooded mass murderers.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the end of the thread.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by SWM   » Fri May 09, 2014 6:06 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Cthia, don't think of it as one gigantic construction project. Think of it as construction of an entire interconnected supermodern town. Multiple buildings are being constructed, each of which will connect together with walkways and passages. Some buildings have been completed, and provide a view of the buildings still under construction a mile away. The completed buildings have already been inspected and have passed code. They are considered perfectly safe, by both the public and OSHA. A school trip visits that building, and suddenly it collapses.

That is the comparison you should be considering.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by phillies   » Fri May 09, 2014 7:26 pm

phillies
Admiral

Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

By the way, the described 1.5 mile dome is about only 50% larger than the proposed Winooskie dome, which was commercially practical if heating oil was more than half of the current cost. The Winooskie dome would have been a mile across, and covered the city of that name. Electric cars are, of course, much less challenging or esoteric than they were 40 years ago.

In terms of parts to be assembled, the domes seem to be simpler inside than buildings, so one might wonder if the project is actually more grandiose than the Kilometer Tower, now approaching construction.

Also, these people have advanced a great deal in computational methods, so things we could not do safely are likely not a challenge for them.
Top
Re: Should Honor really have been charged?
Post by phillies   » Fri May 09, 2014 7:30 pm

phillies
Admiral

Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

cthia wrote:SNIP

A couple of hours ago I received an email. "Uncle, why were those Middle School students allowed within the yellow lines of the Mueller School Dome Construction site?"

Oh shit! All of you sure you'd like her to join the forums?

SNIP



Let us view this positively. In a couple of decades, RunsForCelery may want a senior co-author, someone really bright and perceptive, to take over finishing the next 30 Honor Harrington books, and the next 20 Safehold books. Creating potential recruiting opportunities may be viewed as a favor to the Dread Author.
Top

Return to Honorverse