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in CoG (very small spoiler)

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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri May 09, 2014 8:55 pm

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SWM wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:Exactly. The fission-fusion tradeoff isn't that simple. IIRC, the big problem with the Shrikes is that they're power-limited - they don't have enough power for both the wedge and the graser at the same time without using stored power, which affects their cycle time significantly. On the other hand, the fission pile means they don't need a lot of volume for hydrogen bunkerage.

I'd assumed that the Nat Turners had two of those fission reactors, not one, which would go along with the original description of them being two Shrikes end-to-end. That goes along with the two grasers and the additional magazine capacity, and it also goes along with the Hauptman Cartel being able to design a completely new frigate class without the years of work that would usually be done by a star nation's weapons design department. Now obviously a Nat Turner isn't just a pair of Shrikes bolted together, but that design approach is a whole lot simpler than either starting with a blank sheet of paper or trying to upgrade a conventional frigate design. It also gives Hauptman another export line - or at least it did before Oyster Bay.

With all that, I would be highly surprised if the Nat Turners didn't have significant weaknesses beyond what you would expect in a frigate.

No, they don't have fission reactors. Shrike's are already power starved--even a pair of fission reactors would not be enough for a hyper generator. The comparison to a pair of Shrikes is only about the weapon design. Consider: a ship twice the size of a Shrike is at the bottom end for a dispatch boat. Such a small ship could not possibly be big enough to carry any weapons at all.

A Nat Turner is not really the equivalent of two Shrike's end to end, in any way except weapons mounts.


Think of two Shrikes' worth of weapons and systems in a hull larger than 2 Shrikes with a dispatch boat-sized fusion plant in the middle of it. The automation lets you build a frigate sized vessel with much better armament and a far smaller crew than was ever possible previously. It's still toast against a properly designed DD from the same tech base, but it can chew the posterior off of substantially larger ships w/out Haven Sector-level weaponry.


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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by Alyeska   » Sun May 11, 2014 5:32 am

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Oddly enough, thats one of the things I never was able to get enough info about out of the books. How much power thay could get out of a fission plant, or out of a fusion plant.
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Re: Honorverse series, the future..?
Post by kzt   » Sun May 11, 2014 11:17 am

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Alyeska wrote:Oddly enough, thats one of the things I never was able to get enough info about out of the books. How much power thay could get out of a fission plant, or out of a fusion plant.

There are reasons for that.
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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 11, 2014 12:22 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:No, they don't have fission reactors. Shrike's are already power starved--even a pair of fission reactors would not be enough for a hyper generator. The comparison to a pair of Shrikes is only about the weapon design. Consider: a ship twice the size of a Shrike is at the bottom end for a dispatch boat. Such a small ship could not possibly be big enough to carry any weapons at all.

A Nat Turner is not really the equivalent of two Shrike's end to end, in any way except weapons mounts.


Think of two Shrikes' worth of weapons and systems in a hull larger than 2 Shrikes with a dispatch boat-sized fusion plant in the middle of it. The automation lets you build a frigate sized vessel with much better armament and a far smaller crew than was ever possible previously. It's still toast against a properly designed DD from the same tech base, but it can chew the posterior off of substantially larger ships w/out Haven Sector-level weaponry.[/quote]I'm trying to remember; have we seen anything explicit about their missile fit?

I'd kind of been assuming they still had the LAC weight missiles, not full DD SDMs. Though I'd expect they'd have deeper magazines and therefore not the rotary launchers. but I can't remember if there was anything that said that or if I was also reading too much into the "2 Shrikes" description.
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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by hvb   » Mon May 12, 2014 12:02 pm

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All we really have on their armaments is this bit: "Effectively, they were hyper-capable versions of the Royal Manticoran Navy's Shrike-class LAC but with about twice the missile capacity and a pair of spinal-mounted grasers, with the second energy weapon bearing aft." from both ToF ch13 & CoG ch11 (a word-for-word copy-paste from one book to the other).

It seems to me (YMMV) to imply that the missile armament is more comparable to twice the Shrike-class' than to once the Ferret-class'; this would mean closer to 40 than 54 missiles, and more likely Shrike-style LAC-missiles than DD/CL-strength missiles ... albeit old-style DD/CL birds are likely not significantly more powerful than Shrike birds ...

On the gripping hand, the question becomes one of if Hauptman was allowed to export the Shrike birds, or if they had to use the older SDMs. In the former case, I expect them to have retained the revolvers, in the latter I don't expect them to have re-engineered the revolvers to fit SDMs.

Until we see Torch jump one of those targets Thandi has been musing over though, we will likely be kept guessing.

Jonathan_S wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:No, they don't have fission reactors. Shrike's are already power starved--even a pair of fission reactors would not be enough for a hyper generator. The comparison to a pair of Shrikes is only about the weapon design. Consider: a ship twice the size of a Shrike is at the bottom end for a dispatch boat. Such a small ship could not possibly be big enough to carry any weapons at all.

A Nat Turner is not really the equivalent of two Shrike's end to end, in any way except weapons mounts.


Think of two Shrikes' worth of weapons and systems in a hull larger than 2 Shrikes with a dispatch boat-sized fusion plant in the middle of it. The automation lets you build a frigate sized vessel with much better armament and a far smaller crew than was ever possible previously. It's still toast against a properly designed DD from the same tech base, but it can chew the posterior off of substantially larger ships w/out Haven Sector-level weaponry.
I'm trying to remember; have we seen anything explicit about their missile fit?

I'd kind of been assuming they still had the LAC weight missiles, not full DD SDMs. Though I'd expect they'd have deeper magazines and therefore not the rotary launchers. but I can't remember if there was anything that said that or if I was also reading too much into the "2 Shrikes" description.
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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by Lord Skimper   » Tue May 13, 2014 4:56 pm

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Couldn't it have both fission and fusion drives. If all you need is a fusion drive for hyper jumps it could be pretty small. Using a fission drive or two for everything else would allow for a very capable ship, although you might not want to export it.

As for ships that can traverse a terminus, that is in enemy hands, a whole bunch of frigates 500+ would make for a great way to capture said terminus.
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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue May 13, 2014 5:19 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Couldn't it have both fission and fusion drives. If all you need is a fusion drive for hyper jumps it could be pretty small. Using a fission drive or two for everything else would allow for a very capable ship, although you might not want to export it.


IIRC, the smallest star-ship type fusion-bottle power supply it's possible to build can power an old-style destroyer; it's really overkill for a dispatch boat or an old-style frigate. There's no reason for an auxiliary fission pile. Now it's possible that Manticore has figured out a way of making a smaller fusion bottle, but if they'd gotten it down to where it was a decent match for a Shrike, I doubt if they'd be using the fission piles.

That said, there's another fusion technology that's used for smaller jobs, but it doesn't scale well to what's needed on a ship with a wedge. That leaves a hole in the middle, which is where the fission pile technology fits.
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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by J6P   » Tue May 13, 2014 7:14 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Couldn't it have both fission and fusion drives. If all you need is a fusion drive for hyper jumps it could be pretty small. Using a fission drive or two for everything else would allow for a very capable ship, although you might not want to export it.

As for ships that can traverse a terminus, that is in enemy hands, a whole bunch of frigates 500+ would make for a great way to capture said terminus.


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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by SWM   » Wed May 14, 2014 12:04 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Couldn't it have both fission and fusion drives. If all you need is a fusion drive for hyper jumps it could be pretty small. Using a fission drive or two for everything else would allow for a very capable ship, although you might not want to export it.

As for ships that can traverse a terminus, that is in enemy hands, a whole bunch of frigates 500+ would make for a great way to capture said terminus.

If it has a fusion drive, it has plenty of power and does not need a fission drive as well.
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Re: in CoG (very small spoiler)
Post by Roguevictory   » Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:
As for ships that can traverse a terminus, that is in enemy hands, a whole bunch of frigates 500+ would make for a great way to capture said terminus.


Given what RFC has said about how there won't be a return to frigates being used by the major powers I am guessing there is some big flaw in that plan though I'm uncertain about what it is.
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