The "Good" Peeps

'Fly... I think maybe your humor was a bit too subtle.

MaxxQ wrote:'Fly... I think maybe your humor was a bit too subtle.

Some people just can't contemplate the possibility that a failed state such as the PRH is the inevitable result of excessive and punitive taxation of the talented and productive to fund wealth transfers to the incompetent and indolent.

Since I haven't previously posted about 'liking' the peeps, you can't be talking about me. However I like the Republic because I'm a democrat. Meaning in this context that I think democracies and Republics are a good thing and aristocracies are an unjustifiable evil giving certain people extra rights due to an accident of birth.

namelessfly wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:'Fly... I think maybe your humor was a bit too subtle.

Some people just can't contemplate the possibility that a failed state such as the PRH is the inevitable result of excessive and punitive taxation of the talented and productive to fund wealth transfers to the incompetent and indolent.

Also, name one example supporting that statement.

Also be careful. Were drawing a bit too close to discussing politics here and that is not allowed in this forum.

namelessfly wrote:Some people just can't contemplate the possibility that a failed state such as the PRH is the inevitable result of excessive and punitive taxation of the talented and productive to fund wealth transfers to the incompetent and indolent.

Highjohn wrote:Also, name one example supporting that statement.

Zimbabwe.
Excessive and punitive taxation disguised as overcoming the legacy of apartheid.

And before anyone claims that it wasn't taxation, I ask them what else could match the description "seized by order of the government".

As for the wealth, it was taken from the farmers (productive) and given to the government hangers-on (incompetent and indolent).

My brother-in-law is from South Africa and his family is rather worried that SA is going to follow Zimbabwe's example.

Dr. Arroway,
Outstanding.

I am pleased that you have the courage to be willing to debate your views on this matter that will be completely alien to most. I admire your intestinal fortitude. This is what discussions are all about, or should be. Different angles and different views brought to the table. Why must we fear our difference? I don't want to live in a world of clones. And I will not bite your head off.

I believe that we join our militaries first because of what we believe in and not our governments. Honor did this herself. She joined because of what Honor believed in. She didn't find out that her Monarch was deserving of her loyalty until she met her. And she was pleased.

The good officers of Haven believed in the original Constitution. They believed that it was good and just like parents who love their miscreant kids, believed that if given a proper chance they will grow up to become fine young men. And they were right. Haven did grow up to be fine young men, because of the support, of fine young men.

It is a much better vantage point to be on the inside looking out, than on the outside looking in. We saw the good of Manticore. We were presented with the evil leadership of Haven.

Blood is thicker than water.
What we didn't see is the struggle of the man in the street holding the hands of his family with tears in his eyes because he wants a better life for them.

What we did see was the fine officers with tears of their own who enlisted in the military because they wanted to affect change in the lives of the people in the street of their world and their loved ones, perhaps even in spite of their own government. One man can make a difference. Thomas Theisman. One woman in the Republic did make a difference. Shannon "Oops" Foraker. Esther McQueen. Eloise Pritchart. Either we stand for something or we fall for everything.

Remember also, that the U.S. is Haven to some countries. We don't see it but they do. Outside looking in.

Thanks for the courage to share your views.

Are we a product of our environment?

There are two sides to injustice, both are unbalanced.

The only thing that is inherently evil, is evil itself.

An aside:
Dr. Arroway,
I don't know if you are a trekkie, Star Trek, but I felt the exact same way toward the Klingons after peace. I was wrong. Also, know that you are not alone in your thinking. That will be part of Elizabeth's problem of the peace settlement. Many of her subjects undoubtedly feel just as you.

Michael Everett wrote:My brother-in-law is from South Africa and his family is rather worried that SA is going to follow Zimbabwe's example.

Yeah, FoaF had his sister, BinL and nephew murdered on their farm last week, part of a long string of such attacks that the police have been "unable to solve". I suspect that that's because the attackers are connected to some of the ANC leadership, as they are doing the things that certain members of the ANC like to talk about.

In the Honorverse, and the real world as well, lets be honest here.

While I Do not agree with Aristocracy as a governing institution, I do agree with less voting rights for those who are lazy and sucking on the system. Should they all be allowed to vote? Yes. Should a persons vote not sucking on the governments teat count twice what those who are sucking? Yes. Otherwise, human nature, lazyness, will take over as the incompetent indolent folks vote to steal from those who are productive keeping their lazy butts pampered.

There is no perfect governing system. Each has major problems. Still think the 14th Amendment should be purged where the Senators are not voted into office by the populace. Either that or lengthen Senators terms of office and enacting term limits on the House of Representatives. Of couse this does not solve the political machines that essentially TELL said representatives what/who/when to vote and if one does not, then the $$$ gets cut. Thus, $$$, needs to be taken out of the hands, or partially taken out of the hands of the political parties, allowing representatives to vote their concience. This then leads to the problem of WHO/WHAT/WHERE gives said money out? What determines if one is just "running" to suck on the governement teat of being a politician?

Nothing is easy. Nothing is perfect. Why? Greed, Envy, Power, are all consuming and corrupting no matter the political system. The end result is that the political system is a reflection of the population as a whole. If the population as a whole will not stand up, sacrifice, for their own freedom, and justice, the political establishement will fall into corruption and venality.

A good example of this in the Honorverse was the recent Cauldron of Ghosts where the mob protection racket was the Government in the Sechie areas and, the Mesain Government did retaliatory ethnic cleansing in retliation for supposed terrorist attacks to cover the escape on the Onion.

Poker

wastedfly wrote:In the Honorverse, and the real world as well, lets be honest here.

While I Do not agree with Aristocracy as a governing institution, I do agree with less voting rights for those who are lazy and sucking on the system. Should they all be allowed to vote? Yes. Should a persons vote not sucking on the governments teat count twice what those who are sucking? Yes. Otherwise, human nature, lazyness, will take over as the incompetent indolent folks vote to steal from those who are productive keeping their lazy butts pampered.

There is no perfect governing system. Each has major problems. Still think the 14th Amendment should be purged where the Senators are not voted into office by the populace. Either that or lengthen Senators terms of office and enacting term limits on the House of Representatives. Of couse this does not solve the political machines that essentially TELL said representatives what/who/when to vote and if one does not, then the $$$ gets cut. Thus, $$$, needs to be taken out of the hands, or partially taken out of the hands of the political parties, allowing representatives to vote their concience. This then leads to the problem of WHO/WHAT/WHERE gives said money out? What determines if one is just "running" to suck on the governement teat of being a politician?

Nothing is easy. Nothing is perfect. Why? Greed, Envy, Power, are all consuming and corrupting no matter the political system. The end result is that the political system is a reflection of the population as a whole. If the population as a whole will not stand up, sacrifice, for their own freedom, and justice, the political establishement will fall into corruption and venality.

I submit this question: what would Honor do in their place? Would she for one moment consider serving in such a navy? Would she accept to ambush and slaughter soldiers (not civilians but still human beings) who are there to rightfully defend their homes from murderous aggressors, even if she were ordered to do it? And would she offer the very best of her talents to achieve a greater murderous efficiency, as well?

Answer to that is probably already in the books.
She didn´t avoid serving during the High Ridge government after all.

The "good" peeps (people like Tourville, Foraker, Theisman, and so on) are very sharp and very much aware of the political realities of their star nation.
This means that, whatever else, they have to know the wars they're waging are acts of aggression to steal riches from foreign, free people.

So it doesn't mean much to me that they have (or would have) the restraint to treat PoWs well, to avoid "unnecessary" deaths and so on.
When they plan clever, professional ambushes on other navies, they still commit to mass-murder, even though they hit military personnel: since they have no right to be waging war in the first place, it's ultimately the same thing as slaughtering civilians.

Hoo... Please, just look at the real world history.

One example for highlighting, USSR had many more deserters(on a percentage basis) during the Afghanistan war than USA had during the Vietnam war, does that mean the people of USSR has the moral high ground and are better people?

Both wars began as requests by local, questionable, regimes asking for help against various more or less freedom fighters and bandit kings. Ie with equal (lack of) justification.


*****

Wars aren't waged between good guys and bad guys, and depicting them that way is pure fantasy.

Most of the time at least.

*****

'Fly... I think maybe your humor was a bit too subtle.

You really think he was joking?


*****

And before anyone claims that it wasn't taxation, I ask them what else could match the description "seized by order of the government".

That isn´t taxation. Theft is what it´s usually called.

However, that wasn´t the worst thing, the worst was HOW it was done. They expropriated farms and then placed them in the hands of people who mostly had zero knowledge about running such a farm. Well of course it went to pieces.

A few farms, the new "owners" were smart enough to offer the "previous" owners to stay as "managers", pretty much keep everything the same except who the land officially belongs to.

THOSE kept running fine, until the regime didn´t like it, as it showcased neatly just how stupid they had been.