The "Good" Peeps

Disclaimer: the following is just my opinion.

I just have to let it out of my system: the good peeps are still the bad guys for me.
I know they're gallant and everything, and I know they have their own "legions" of fans around here.

The "good" peeps (people like Tourville, Foraker, Theisman, and so on) are very sharp and very much aware of the political realities of their star nation.
This means that, whatever else, they have to know the wars they're waging are acts of aggression to steal riches from foreign, free people.

So it doesn't mean much to me that they have (or would have) the restraint to treat PoWs well, to avoid "unnecessary" deaths and so on.
When they plan clever, professional ambushes on other navies, they still commit to mass-murder, even though they hit military personnel: since they have no right to be waging war in the first place, it's ultimately the same thing as slaughtering civilians.

I submit this question: what would Honor do in their place? Would she for one moment consider serving in such a navy? Would she accept to ambush and slaughter soldiers (not civilians but still human beings) who are there to rightfully defend their homes from murderous aggressors, even if she were ordered to do it? And would she offer the very best of her talents to achieve a greater murderous efficiency, as well?

Of course, they're among the "most decent" of the Peeps, and possibly worthy of "redemption", but they're still the "bad guys" and they deserve to be defeated.
Hope not to sound too "fanatic" but this is my honest reaction to their stories, and I was a bit surprised to see that it's not as widespread among the other readers as I thought.

Wow, that's an interesting position. I salute you for the courage it takes to make a stand that is bound to be unpopular here.

In answer to one of the questions you pose--yes, I believe that Honor would indeed volunteer to serve in a military even if that military were charged to commit acts of unwarranted aggression, if she felt that it was necessary for the survival of her nation.

Different people joined the Havenite navy for different reasons. Some believed that the wars were the only way for the Republic to survive. Some felt that the Navy was unreliable, and needed true patriots to keep them going in the right direction. Some joined because of pressure from other people. Some joined because it was the only way out of their own poverty.

Almost all of these "good" peeps you mention joined the RHN long before the war with Manticore. I'm not offering that as an excuse, but an observation. It is good to remember the conditions in Haven at that time. Outside of the Legislaturalists, advanced education is nearly non-existent. Almost no one has a job. For the vast majority, there is no opportunity for anything better. The military is one of the few options for improving one's life. And the propaganda promotes the Legislaturalist's military agenda.

Once you are in the military, your choices are quite restricted. As long as they do not involve war crimes, disobeying orders is not really an option (especially in the PRN). Attacking neighboring nations is not a war crime. It's what militaries have done for millennia on behalf of their governments. Any military personnel with a sense of honor is bound by their oaths to obey legal orders. And that's what these people did.

I myself am a great believer in peace. But I do not blame military personnel for carrying out the military policies of their government, as long as they do not cross into war crimes. In fact, I will strongly support the military, even when I disagree with the politicians who send them to war.

But all of this is a matter of personal opinion, and your point of view is hardly alone in the world. It will probably not be very common here, since the nature of the books tends to select for people who like military action and stories.

Of course they are aware of the political realities, and both Foraker and Theisman both acted on those politcal realties. "Ooops."
Wars aren't waged between good guys and bad guys, and depicting them that way is pure fantasy.
Had Honor been born in the PRH, she might well have pursued a Naval career and ended in the position of the Peep officers we see. They are loyal to their star nation, even if they don't like their government. What should they do? Abandon their nation? It is easy to say from far away to someone else, but it is really, really hard.

Dr. Arroway wrote:Snip
The "good" peeps (people like Tourville, Foraker, Theisman, and so on) are very sharp and very much aware of the political realities of their star nation.
This means that, whatever else, they have to know the wars they're waging are acts of aggression to steal riches from foreign, free people.

Snip

Just out of curiosity, how far have you gotten in the series? I sort of sounds like you have missed the last few books.

Once the Peoples Republic is torn down and the restored Republic of Haven is established, it is no longer about an oppressive government getting Manticore's money, but it becomes two groups of free people sort of stuck in a war that neither side really wants. During the second war, they even attempted to have a piece summit on Torch until the MAlign through a spanner in the works.

I'm actually not going to address anything the OP said in their post, because all I'd be able to manage is a pile of seething, frothing rage, so all I will say is this:

If you cannot understand the slow, careful, and incredibly painful development of the Republic of Haven, and the complexities the reality of that star nation brings to the old "good guys vs. bad guys" formula, you're missing one of the main points of the series.

France as a country is not inherently evil, despite the slaughter of the Reign of Terror. Great Britain is not inherently evil, despite the damage colonialism did to the world. Germany as a country is not evil, despite the horrors of the Holocaust. And Haven is not evil, despite the nightmare of the Legislaturalists and then the Committee.

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right, and if wrong, to be set right."

You might want to think about that for awhile.

Welcome to the forums, Ensign!

A very cogent analysis of the morality of the Peeps war. In their defense it can be argued that as a result of Legislaturist propaganda they presumed that if they lost the war, Manticore would loot their economies just as they had looted others.

Weber has also done an excellent job of creating protagonists that have redeeming qualities.

However; given the opinions on current events expressed by many of the people on this forum, I suspect that they have always been rooting for the PRH because the peeps are "enlightened socialists" who steal from the rich to give to the poor. These Weber fans obviously believe that Manticoran citizens are not only indecently wealthy, they have become so much wealthier than their neighbors by exploiting an astrographical anomaly to extort wealth from it's poorer neighbors.

They have been cheering for the PRH all along and even believed that Cordella Ransom's actions were justified.

Dr. Arroway wrote:Disclaimer: the following is just my opinion.

I just have to let it out of my system: the good peeps are still the bad guys for me.
I know they're gallant and everything, and I know they have their own "legions" of fans around here.

The "good" peeps (people like Tourville, Foraker, Theisman, and so on) are very sharp and very much aware of the political realities of their star nation.
This means that, whatever else, they have to know the wars they're waging are acts of aggression to steal riches from foreign, free people.

So it doesn't mean much to me that they have (or would have) the restraint to treat PoWs well, to avoid "unnecessary" deaths and so on.
When they plan clever, professional ambushes on other navies, they still commit to mass-murder, even though they hit military personnel: since they have no right to be waging war in the first place, it's ultimately the same thing as slaughtering civilians.

I submit this question: what would Honor do in their place? Would she for one moment consider serving in such a navy? Would she accept to ambush and slaughter soldiers (not civilians but still human beings) who are there to rightfully defend their homes from murderous aggressors, even if she were ordered to do it? And would she offer the very best of her talents to achieve a greater murderous efficiency, as well?

Of course, they're among the "most decent" of the Peeps, and possibly worthy of "redemption", but they're still the "bad guys" and they deserve to be defeated.
Hope not to sound too "fanatic" but this is my honest reaction to their stories, and I was a bit surprised to see that it's not as widespread among the other readers as I thought.

Dr. Arroway wrote:I submit this question: what would Honor do in their place? Would she for one moment consider serving in such a navy? Would she accept to ambush and slaughter soldiers (not civilians but still human beings) who are there to rightfully defend their homes from murderous aggressors, even if she were ordered to do it? And would she offer the very best of her talents to achieve a greater murderous efficiency, as well?

Honor was in such situation
Honor carried her orders
btw, this resulted in the largest bloodbath of Havenite Wars

Dr. Arroway wrote:Disclaimer: the following is just my opinion.

I just have to let it out of my system: the good peeps are still the bad guys for me.
--==SNIP==--

Certainly an interesting position...

Can I therefore state that in my opinion the Americans are English subjects still in a state of rebellion against their legal government?

Okay. Got that out of my system.

Seriously though, people can change, as can nations.
Germany is no longer the "let us conquer all of Europe, Deuschland Uber Alles!" state that it was in the late 30's and early 40's.
Cambodia isn't a marxism-based-hell that has people killed for wearing glasses (not kidding, Pol Pot was a total loony!).
Zimbabwe isn't a highly profitable food-producing nation any more.
Nations can change, history proves it.

Of course, peoples attitudes to other nations can take a lot longer to change...

namelessfly wrote:However; given the opinions on current events expressed by many of the people on this forum, I suspect that they have always been rooting for the PRH because the peeps are "enlightened socialists" who steal from the rich to give to the poor. These Weber fans obviously believe that Manticoran citizens are not only indecently wealthy, they have become so much wealthier than their neighbors by exploiting an astrographical anomaly to extort wealth from it's poorer neighbors.

They have been cheering for the PRH all along and even believed that Cordella Ransom's actions were justified.

Yeah, sure. Any other unfounded prejudices about those not on the american conservative party line you wish to share with the class?

The E wrote:

namelessfly wrote:However; given the opinions on current events expressed by many of the people on this forum, I suspect that they have always been rooting for the PRH because the peeps are "enlightened socialists" who steal from the rich to give to the poor. These Weber fans obviously believe that Manticoran citizens are not only indecently wealthy, they have become so much wealthier than their neighbors by exploiting an astrographical anomaly to extort wealth from it's poorer neighbors.

They have been cheering for the PRH all along and even believed that Cordella Ransom's actions were justified.

Yeah, sure. Any other unfounded prejudices about those not on the american conservative party line you wish to share with the class?

You. I like you.

That is all.