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Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:54 pm

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cthia wrote:And, let's be honest, when he escaped he didn't have a choice but to gain some sort of power so that he could continue breathing. Would he have been able to stay alive without the Ballroom?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:There are many places where an escaped slave can find exile and opportunity. Take the example of Hugh Arai, who became an operative in Beowulf's Biological Survey Corps. Paulo d'Arezzo's family found a place to live in Manticore; Ginny Usher in Haven, probably during the People's Republic days.

Heck, it's possible most of the RF member worlds would have welcomed escaped slaves.

I agree with you that the Ballroom was not a necessity.

Frankly, I expect Kevin Usher meet Ginny on Earth; since the Peoples' Republic basically exiled him there.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:04 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
tlb wrote:We see several examples of bio-sculpting in the books; consider Berry Zilwicki and Princess Ruth in Crown of Slaves having their bodies molded so they could change places, like in The Prince and the Pauper. Basically it is a high tech version of plastic surgery using nanites instead of plastic, that can include skeleton changes.


That sounds like a mechanical, almost brute-force approach: having the nanites do the work.

Interesting! But personally, I would categorize nanite therapy more along the lines of a subtle approach. And I would refer to the brute force method more along the lines of utilizing high tech surgical technology. Today, surgery is limited by the tools. Knives are used to perform the incisions and cutting. And a surgeon's skill and steady hands are essential. Now, in the HV, I imagine it is carried out with computer controlled "precision lasers," cutting and restructuring skin and bones.

Another limitation of present day cosmetic surgery is the limitation of available compatible skin and bones. We often have to take skin grafts from ones buttocks. But in the HV, growing replacement tissue and bone on a limited scale should be a piece of cake. Add to that limitation the very important craft of suturing. There are specialists just for stitching.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:A gene therapy would update the genetic material so the body would do it on its own... but I don't think that's just how biology works. Do the bones get cell replenishment or are they literally calcified? I suppose you could code some genes to start doing just that, but it carries a large risk of getting out of control and producing a very, very aggressive cancer.

And it might also be both slower and harder to reverse. If you want to change your eye or hair colour, it's probably easier to have the nanites insert pigmentation (or remove, as the case may be) than to force the cells in the iris or the follicles to do something specific. Once you no longer want that, the nanites simply stop doing their work and the body reverses to normal over a period of time. Want a tanned body for Summer? Eat a pill of nanites and melanin.


I always considered things like hair and eye color to be simple changes that can be achieved almost anywhere in the HV, without requiring gene modification, and certainly nothing that would come close to violating the Beowulf Code.

I would be surprised if the use of nanites are not common all over the galaxy. Except the MA took them to an all new level and, ah, let them out of their box.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:11 pm

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tlb wrote:No reason to do that, but one could easily say that what he has done as an ex-slave is something that anyone could be proud of. Being among the founders of a planet dedicated to freedom for ex-slaves, along with Professor W.E.B. Du Havel and Queen Berry, is something that he could only have done as the leader of the Audubon Ballroom.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:He might have still been the leader of the Ballroom if he hadn't been born a slave. Unlikely, but it's possible. And there are other ways to contribute, like Catherine Montaigne did/does.

But it's also possible that he might have been part of that founding without being the leader. Neither Thandi Palane nor Queen Berry herself were (officially) slaves, though they were probably the next thing to it, given their upbringing. Victor Cachat and Anton Zilwicki, on the other hand, were very far from being slaves. And Princess Ruth is, well, a princess of Manticore, though the fact that her mother was being held as a virtual slave on Masada is not just a coincidence, because it would have shaped her opinion of the subject.

If you reread "From the Highlands" and Crown of Slaves, then I believe you will accept that he had to have been a leader in the Ballroom to join the others that came together in the climax.

The importance of the others that were not slaves is not to be denied, but Torch needed ex-slaves as leaders in government to be credible as a refuge for ex-slaves. Just as they needed the Amazons in the army to be credible as a refuge for those who had been called "Scrags".
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:43 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:And, let's be honest, when he escaped he didn't have a choice but to gain some sort of power so that he could continue breathing. Would he have been able to stay alive without the Ballroom?


There are many places where an escaped slave can find exile and opportunity. Take the example of Hugh Arai, who became an operative in Beowulf's Biological Survey Corps. Paulo d'Arezzo's family found a place to live in Manticore; Ginny Usher in Haven, probably during the People's Republic days.

Heck, it's possible most of the RF member worlds would have welcomed escaped slaves.

Caviar/Caveat: The important distinction is that Jeremy X is at the very top of the CAASAP list.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:47 pm

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tlb wrote:The importance of the others that were not slaves is not to be denied, but Torch needed ex-slaves as leaders in government to be credible as a refuge for ex-slaves. Just as they needed the Amazons in the army to be credible as a refuge for those who had been called "Scrags".


The symbolism is not lost on me.

But if Jeremy X hadn't been the leader of the Ballroom, there's nothing preventing whoever that leader was from joining the Torch government too.

Of course, it's impossible to know if said leader would have been sympathetic to Queen Berry.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:02 pm

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tlb wrote:The importance of the others that were not slaves is not to be denied, but Torch needed ex-slaves as leaders in government to be credible as a refuge for ex-slaves. Just as they needed the Amazons in the army to be credible as a refuge for those who had been called "Scrags".

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The symbolism is not lost on me.

But if Jeremy X hadn't been the leader of the Ballroom, there's nothing preventing whoever that leader was from joining the Torch government too.

Of course, it's impossible to know if said leader would have been sympathetic to Queen Berry.

Of course, whoever was head of the Ballroom would have been invited to join the cabinet as war minister. As it happens that was Jeremy X.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:07 pm

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cthia wrote:And, let's be honest, when he escaped he didn't have a choice but to gain some sort of power so that he could continue breathing. Would he have been able to stay alive without the Ballroom?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:There are many places where an escaped slave can find exile and opportunity. Take the example of Hugh Arai, who became an operative in Beowulf's Biological Survey Corps. Paulo d'Arezzo's family found a place to live in Manticore; Ginny Usher in Haven, probably during the People's Republic days.

Heck, it's possible most of the RF member worlds would have welcomed escaped slaves.

cthia wrote:Caveat: The important distinction is that Jeremy X is at the very top of the CAASAP list.

However he was only at the top of the Colin Detweiler hit list, because he was head of the Audubon Ballroom; if he had gone a different route then he would not have been of interest to the Malign.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:32 pm

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tlb wrote:Of course, whoever was head of the Ballroom would have been invited to join the cabinet as war minister. As it happens that was Jeremy X.


Of course, but that's not what I meant. I meant about personalities -- Berry and this putative leader may not have gone along well. Suppose he or she refuses to address her as Your Mousety or worse, refuses to accept a monarchy despite Prof. Du Havel's arguments.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:53 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:My point is that Leonard Detweiler had an overarching genetic vision. And he surely had a plan to engage and bring that vision to its fruition. Genetic manipulation involves a lot of hits and misses. And Leonard definitely had to have had a strategy to achieve his successes. And the tactics he was willing to use is what would have concerned Beowulf. It remains to be discovered if whether the more aggressive genetic tactics employed by the MA (killing babies and entire lines) was something that was employed by Leonard.


At the very minimum we know his plan involved creating millions of non-consenting test subjects. Whether he views them as genetic indentured servants, whether he plans for them to eventually be emancipated and made full citizens, doesn't alter the basic fact that he starts by creating millions of humans with genetic alterations - and using their genetics to breed more humans with more genetic mods - all without the consent of anybody involved.

I'd like to think that far more than Beowulf would have strong objections to that practice -- even if the actual genetic engineering had followed their guidelines (which of course it wasn't).


And since he was specifically willing to try incorporating non-human or synthetic genetic changes into humans it would seem the risk of bad outcomes would be far higher than with the practices Beowulf permitted. He was specifically noted as viewing the eventual benefit for humanity as more important than benefit for each test subject. Even if he didn't carry that to its logical conclusion of risky tests and culling the 'failed' results (as opposed to simply preventing 'failed' genetic trial from being passed on, that's still going to lead to pretty crappy lives for some of those non-consenting test subjects.

Of, and of course to keep his genetic tests going he's going to have to sharply limit any natural genetic combinations -- so while he might not be preventing his "indentured" experimental population from living with and marrying who they want he's almost assuredly controlling the genetics of any children they may have -- so a couple may not be allowed to have kids that share their DNA if he views it as more important for a different cross to be tried.

So yeah, even from the beginning, he's justifying some pretty darned nasty means in order to go after his desired ends.


Actually, I agree that Leonard utilized appalling tactics as well, from the start. I contend that it is far more likely that he had to adopt appalling tactics, since his research came first.

My statement "It remains to be discovered whether the more aggressive tactics employed by the MA was something that was employed by Leonard" was more to appease tlb. I thought tlb was questioning whether he had adopted the same inhumane tactics ...

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:If indeed total disclosure is given, and if Leonard himself embraced and accepted some of the more appalling atrocities that went on in the labs, then the galaxy itself, much less Beowulf, would have a huge problem with it. And therein may lie what motivated Leonard's heirs to develop a more aggressive plan to merge with the Galaxy.

What exactly is the Enlightenment continuing on with? It has stated to be the true followers of Leonard's vision. What are they following? And, how did their benign vision come to adopt naval strategies?

What appalling atrocities do you imagine went on in the labs in Leonard's time? Why do you think the Enlightenment had to adopt naval strategies and how could they when they were a dissident group within Mesa?

I believe the rupture was that the board decided that instead of raising all mankind, they would raise a superior group to rule mankind.


Being the first to go where no man or lab had gone before, would very likely need to adopt culling -- an ever-ready trash bin -- to discard mistakes.

And the naval strategies I was referring to is about the entire set-up at Galton. The naval presence and technology at Galton doesn't strike me as appearing overnight. It was well thought out over quite some time I would imagine. The defense against the GA, specifically, was implemented quickly. But I hesitate to think that defensively the capabilities as a whole at Galton were implemented overnite.

And I am aware the Evil Alignment may have been pulling some strings, but how was Galton talked into adopting naval tactics in the first place. They seem to have gone far beyond system defense.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by tlb   » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:52 am

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cthia wrote:And the naval strategies I was referring to is about the entire set-up at Galton. The naval presence and technology at Galton doesn't strike me as appearing overnight. It was well thought out over quite some time I would imagine. The defense against the GA, specifically, was implemented quickly. But I hesitate to think that defensively the capabilities as a whole at Galton were implemented overnite.

And I am aware the Evil Alignment may have been pulling some strings, but how was Galton talked into adopting naval tactics in the first place. They seem to have gone far beyond system defense.

I think that if you check the timeline that Galton was created after the Malign had taken over in the past six hundred years. Leonard Detweiler's vision had nothing to do with it. So the Mesan Enlightenment did not engage in navel tactics, how could they when they were a dissident group within Mesa?
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