Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests

The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Grashtel   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:32 am

Grashtel
Captain of the List

Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:59 am

HB of CJ wrote:Take a concentrated maximum Grand Alliance fleet and go straight for Sol/three Terra. Then work your way out and back, destroying as many ships, men and military AND ECONOMIC infrastructure as you can, while you can. Do NOT give the enemry time to think or even blink.

Which has a considerable chance of unifying the rest of the League against the GA so rather than crumbling into lots of manageable sized polities stays as a largely unified entity with a grudge against the GA. Which is the exact opposite of what the GA (and the Alignment unfortunately) want and would create major problems in the future.

The League is big enough that fighting them directly is doomed to failure, even though the GA could win they couldn't keep the League from rising again and stomping them. Instead the GA is going to encourage the League to break up into numerous smaller and more manageable states, which is doable as the League seems to be mostly held together by inertia now rather than being any kind of really unified entity.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:31 am

JohnRoth
Admiral

Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 am
Location: Centreville, VA, USA

HB of CJ wrote:How do you kill a multi-headed huge monster like the Solarian League? The answer is that you CAN NOT!! At least not quickly or easily. No many how many heads you cut off, several other heads will just take over.

The Grand Alliance will need to quickly kill as many ships and people as quickly as possible. Use the teck advantage while it still exists... because it won't last long. Never under estimated your enemy. When out numbered many to one, sometimes being subtle does not work.

Take a concentrated maximum Grand Alliance fleet and go straight for Sol/three Terra. Then work your way out and back, destroying as many ships, men and military AND ECONOMIC infrastructure as you can, while you can. Do NOT give the enemry time to think or even blink.

My Sum Of All Fears is that no matter how much the Alliance may hurt the Sollies, they will NEVER be able to knock them completely out. Do not count on them just rolling over and playing dead... because they will not. They can not. The human condition. HB of CJ (old coot)


The MAlign had never planned on an outside force helping to take the SL down. That's what the Leonard Detweiller class spider-drive SDs are for.

As I understand it, their plan was similar to the way a demolition company takes down a building using explosives: put them in carefully calculated positions, time them to go off in the right order, and the building just collapses into a pile of rubble (with, admittedly, a huge amount of dust in the atmosphere).

Now add in an outside force trying to take down the same building that doesn't understand it's been wired for demolition. :roll:
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by The E   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:43 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

JohnRoth wrote:Now add in an outside force trying to take down the same building that doesn't understand it's been wired for demolition. :roll:


I'm not quite sure that that analogy holds up. Recall that the original plan of the Alignment was to have Haven take out Manticore; Given that Haven was as opposed to the public sections of Mesa as Manticore was, and given that they would be in a really strong position once they've secured the Junction, I would think that the Alignment had Haven playing the role of big scary barbarian at the gate. In a sense, what the GA is doing is filling a role that was always necessary under the Alignment's master plan, there was always going to be a need for a big catalyst to put pressure on the fault lines running through the League.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Hutch   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:26 am

Hutch
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1831
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama y'all

The E wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:Now add in an outside force trying to take down the same building that doesn't understand it's been wired for demolition. :roll:


I'm not quite sure that that analogy holds up. Recall that the original plan of the Alignment was to have Haven take out Manticore; Given that Haven was as opposed to the public sections of Mesa as Manticore was, and given that they would be in a really strong position once they've secured the Junction, I would think that the Alignment had Haven playing the role of big scary barbarian at the gate. In a sense, what the GA is doing is filling a role that was always necessary under the Alignment's master plan, there was always going to be a need for a big catalyst to put pressure on the fault lines running through the League.


E, that was my understanding too. A large, corrupt and venial PRH (with the Wormhole junction and Manticore-and maybe the Aldermani under their thumb) could be brought into conflict with the large, corrupt and venial SL whenever Mesa desired and the resulting chaos and confusion and rebellions (with MAlign help) would lead to the collapse of both sides and during the ensuing "Dark Age" , the Allignment, via the Renissance Factor, would lead the tattered remmants of humanity to a Brave New World.

Of course, things aren't working out quite as planned--and Tester bless King Roger III and his rather energetic daughter--and a certain platinum-haired Truth Seeker....
Last edited by Hutch on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by The E   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:44 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

Hutch wrote:Of course, things aren't working out quite as planned--and Tester bless King Roger III and his rather energetic daughter--and a certain platinum-haired Truth Seeker....


Here's a thought though: The Alignment has already won.

The Alignment has two big primary objectives. One, the dissolution of the League. Two, the abolishment of the Beowulf Code. The first goal is already mostly accomplished, and most of the groundwork for the second is already laid in. Think about it: The Renaissance Factor worlds will already have lots of stuff in place to make them receptive to voices calling for an amendment to the Beowulf code. Even if left alone, those seeds will grow and, with a little intervention here and there, turn these worlds away from the accepted baseline.

Now, in the original plan, the Alignment wanted Beowulf isolated. No more League, and no Manticore to help spread the Gospel; but I wonder if the formation of the GA will actually change matters all that much. The Alignment is far too deeply entrenched, and has had far too much time to influence cultures for its influence to go away completely. Whatever the state of the galaxy will be after the fall of the League and after the GA has defeated the Alignment's forces (presumably), there will be successor states that will carry on the Detweiler legacy, that will work towards more overt transhumanism.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:23 am

Crown Loyalist
Commander

Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:52 pm

The E wrote:
Here's a thought though: The Alignment has already won.

The Alignment has two big primary objectives. One, the dissolution of the League. Two, the abolishment of the Beowulf Code. The first goal is already mostly accomplished, and most of the groundwork for the second is already laid in. Think about it: The Renaissance Factor worlds will already have lots of stuff in place to make them receptive to voices calling for an amendment to the Beowulf code. Even if left alone, those seeds will grow and, with a little intervention here and there, turn these worlds away from the accepted baseline.

Now, in the original plan, the Alignment wanted Beowulf isolated. No more League, and no Manticore to help spread the Gospel; but I wonder if the formation of the GA will actually change matters all that much. The Alignment is far too deeply entrenched, and has had far too much time to influence cultures for its influence to go away completely. Whatever the state of the galaxy will be after the fall of the League and after the GA has defeated the Alignment's forces (presumably), there will be successor states that will carry on the Detweiler legacy, that will work towards more overt transhumanism.


I entirely agree with this assessment. Manticore is not going to stop the RF from coalescing into a united polity. What Manticore might be able to do is prevent the RF from coalescing into a united polity the size of, or even a significant fraction of, the Solarian League.

The whole idea was the entire League would fall apart, and the RF would present to the remaining League members a remnant of the stability and protection that they had enjoyed under the League. All the remaining single-system polities would flock to the banner of the RF, which would give Mesa's transhumanist ideology a platform that was not only overt, but hegemonic within the human diaspora.

With the Grand Alliance (and Maya) around, though, the GA is going to be offering stability and protection also, which means all those desperate single-system polities won't necessarily flock to the RF's banner. Many undoubtedly will, but others will choose to group together and form the smaller (but still substantial) political units that Honor said should be Manticore's goal for the collapse of the Sollies.

I still think inevitably we'll see the formation of the RF, which will comprise a significant fraction of the former Solarian worlds, enough to become the galaxy's largest polity.

The one thing that both Manticore and Mesa don't want is for the Solarian League's collapse to be arrested. The only thing that could do that, now, is a giant Grand Alliance wrecking-crew like strike; the wrecking of a few dozen Solarian industrial economies. That would provoke everyone who is not really invested in the League's ongoing survival to become invested in it, and suddenly the inevitable collapse isn't so inevitable.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by MaxxQ   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:12 pm

MaxxQ
BuNine

Posts: 1553
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

The Grand Alliance Grand Attack = GAGA

So many possible jokes from that acronym. :mrgreen:

Unfortunately, I'm not that creative. I can see the potential, but coming up with something funny eludes me.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by SWM   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:49 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

MaxxQ wrote:The Grand Alliance Grand Attack = GAGA

So many possible jokes from that acronym. :mrgreen:

Unfortunately, I'm not that creative. I can see the potential, but coming up with something funny eludes me.

Heh. Not being a Lady Gaga fan, I think of Queen:

from the freed systems:

All we hear is Manticore GAGA
Manticore goo goo
Manticore GAGA
All we hear is Manticore GAGA
Manticore what's new?
Manticore, someone still loves you!

:mrgreen:
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by MaxxQ   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:13 pm

MaxxQ
BuNine

Posts: 1553
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

SWM wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:The Grand Alliance Grand Attack = GAGA

So many possible jokes from that acronym. :mrgreen:

Unfortunately, I'm not that creative. I can see the potential, but coming up with something funny eludes me.

Heh. Not being a Lady Gaga fan, I think of Queen:

from the freed systems:

All we hear is Manticore GAGA
Manticore goo goo
Manticore GAGA
All we hear is Manticore GAGA
Manticore what's new?
Manticore, someone still loves you!

:mrgreen:


Yeah... I'm not a Lady Gaga fan either, but I thought about the Queen song as well.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:17 pm

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3114
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

The Alignment has several problems that it did not anticipate and are going to eventualy bite them on the ass.
First amoung them is the astounding (to them) mull-faceted snag that 1) Manticore has (so far) survived the Oyster Bay attack, 2) has made a workable peace with Haven, 3) Grayson is likely to also survive and 4) between Manticore, Grayson, Haven and Beowulf the GA is going to be able to beat back SL attacks for a while.

Second is that Haven, Manticore and the IAM all KNOW the Alignment exists- which was NOT supposed to happen- and all three are serioiusly pissed off with the manipulation of at least Haven and Manticore plus the nanite assassin attacks. These three very powerful Star Nations are now actively involved in looking for the Alignment and are about to take our (probably) Mesa as an active base of operations.

Third is that the RF is now going to have serious competition for an alternative to the fractured SL as a "way to save civilization". Presuming Beowulf survives the anticipated SL/Mandarin inspired attack to block the withdrawal fo Bwowulf from the SL, there are going to be a lot of viable options for systems and star nations to work with.

Fourth (and presuming that Maya is not an Alignment venture) the Erwhon/Maya partnership will put yet another viable alternative to the RF in play

I'm not saying the Alignment is done in the short term but that their plans are going to get further and further behind and dependent on people reacting to major problmes and setbacks instead of knocking the support out of the potential survivors of the SL
Top

Return to Honorverse