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Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Ghosts

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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by Lord Skimper   » Tue May 20, 2014 10:08 am

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Plus Torch maybe the free slaves planet but Mesa is about to become their home planet. One can see a free Mesa being less than thrilled with ballroom torch trying to tell them what to do. Regardless of any good will, goodwill only last so long.
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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by lyonheart   » Tue May 20, 2014 12:28 pm

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Hi JohnRoth,

I'm inclined to disagree regarding Mike's handling of Mesa.

I don't think she'll just kick the problems down the road.

Granted she has some military imperatives, dealing with other forest fires, but putting Victor and Thandi in command of at least a squadron of old DD's [each with a marine company] though a squadron of Star Knight CA's would be better, plus a CLAC etc if and when she leaves before being reinforced [by Chein-lu and/or HH] after trashing the Mesan Space Navy and the system defenses will certainly help their authority on the ground.

Of course that trust in Victor, without instructions or orders, will impress the Haven public; but I expect her to have done some research on the way to Mesa, besides being advised by Victor, Thandi, NTM Dusek etc, will make some impressively wise decisions, even if they appear off the cuff to the Mesan leaders.

Then there's the problem of the Visigoth junction that hasn't been taken yet, or Anton would have gotten help sent to Mesa or a faster trip back to Manticore in a db ie more than twice as fast.

I suspect there is a considerable SLN base there of some sort, than prevents a small RMN/GA scouting force of securing the termini.

Exactly how many termini are like that is another question. ;)

Exactly what Eric Flint and RFC have in mind will be fascinating to read.

What besides Beowulf will happen before Mike gets to Mesa?

We may have some more 'scuffles' at a termini or two, more revolutionaries plotting, what else?

Which reminds me, shouldn't ONI and SIS have had agents on the ground on all these OFS systems since soon after Lynx was discovered?

While rebellion would be the last thing they'd want to get mixed up in, I'd expect the message from Spindle after Mobius surfaced, to such agents would be to lower expectations, encourage delay, to buy time.

Even if just a couple agents per system besides the embassy and commercial representatives, The Governor and Navy in Spindle should have been getting hints on conditions in surrounding systems including failed revolts like Loomis, so Mobius shouldn't have been too much of a surprise; after all if they'd been brain storming the worse thing Mesa could do to the SEM, they might have been more ready.

But that's another thread. 8-)

L


JohnRoth wrote:
calyad wrote::D Just listened to the Baen podcast, interview with David and Eric. Great job guys. I just finished 'Cauldron of Ghosts' and 'Like a Mighty Army', and typical fan talk) can't wait for the next in the series. Cauldron finished so abruptly I was in shock for a moment. Wasn't watching the % read. I guess that is what keeps us in tow. Here are my tips - guess you really wanted to know, (ha ha). I would like to see how the world of Mesa progresses, Seccy development etc, and catch up with some of those characters. Also, the two Alignment characters that killed their minder might want to change allegiance (that bit of action, like so much of your action, was excellent). It may be hard, writing about Honorverse, now that peace is sort of breaking out, but we know you will do that universe well!
cheers
Cal (in Western Australia)


I'd also like to see how Adm. Henke handles Mesa. My suspicion is she'll do a short-term fix with respect to the seccies and require that the provisions in the Mesan constitution with respect to the slaves be enforced. Otherwise she'll kick the can down the road until the delegations from Torch and Beowulf arrive.

Beyond that, I can't really see the Mesan story as being all that central to the rest of the storyline. Maybe one of the two collaborations that David and Eric still have under contract.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue May 20, 2014 2:28 pm

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calyad wrote::D Just listened to the Baen podcast, interview with David and Eric. Great job guys. I just finished 'Cauldron of Ghosts' and 'Like a Mighty Army', and typical fan talk) can't wait for the next in the series. Cauldron finished so abruptly I was in shock for a moment. Wasn't watching the % read. I guess that is what keeps us in tow. Here are my tips - guess you really wanted to know, (ha ha). I would like to see how the world of Mesa progresses, Seccy development etc, and catch up with some of those characters. Also, the two Alignment characters that killed their minder might want to change allegiance (that bit of action, like so much of your action, was excellent). It may be hard, writing about Honorverse, now that peace is sort of breaking out, but we know you will do that universe well!
cheers
Cal (in Western Australia)


JohnRoth wrote:I'd also like to see how Adm. Henke handles Mesa. My suspicion is she'll do a short-term fix with respect to the seccies and require that the provisions in the Mesan constitution with respect to the slaves be enforced. Otherwise she'll kick the can down the road until the delegations from Torch and Beowulf arrive.

Beyond that, I can't really see the Mesan story as being all that central to the rest of the storyline. Maybe one of the two collaborations that David and Eric still have under contract.
lyonheart wrote:Hi JohnRoth,

I'm inclined to disagree regarding Mike's handling of Mesa.

I don't think she'll just kick the problems down the road.


Looking at what I said, I guess I wasn't all that clear. I think there's only one problem she'll wait on until the delegations from Beowulf, Torch and the Ballroom arrive. That's the permanent resolution of the genetic slave issue. The rest of it has fairly obvious solutions, or at least initial actions, in line with long-range Manticoran policy. To wit:

1. Eliminate the Seccy problem by giving them full citizenship. That would include political settlements with all of the district bosses. It's Mesa's problem to figure out how to make it work, get the resources to fix up the Seccy districts, etc.
2. Enforce the existing constitutional guarantees of good treatment for the genetic slaves. It's Mesa's problem, ditto.
3. Prohibit all transport of genetic slaves off-planet, including destroying all ships equipped as slavers.
4. Identify as many Alignment people as possible by identifying how many critical decision-makers have vanished.
5. Bottle up the Mesan transstellars, or at least the ones that can't justify their existance.
6. Deny the wormhole terminus to Solarian League traffic.

Then, of course, it'll be very interesting to see what happens when Audry O’Hanrahan asks for an interview.

lyonheart wrote:Granted she has some military imperatives, dealing with other forest fires, but putting Victor and Thandi in command of at least a squadron of old DD's [each with a marine company] though a squadron of Star Knight CA's would be better, plus a CLAC etc if and when she leaves before being reinforced [by Chein-lu and/or HH] after trashing the Mesan Space Navy and the system defenses will certainly help their authority on the ground.


I'm not sure what other forest fires you're referring to. She knows how many FF ships are in the Madras sector (essentially none). She's sent a ship to each of the systems in the sector. She's probably got a list of places she wants to go next, but right now taking Mesa, including the Mesan transstellars, out of play is on the short list. She can afford to wait until she's reinforced both militarily and politically.

lyonheart wrote:Of course that trust in Victor, without instructions or orders, will impress the Haven public; but I expect her to have done some research on the way to Mesa, besides being advised by Victor, Thandi, NTM Dusek etc, will make some impressively wise decisions, even if they appear off the cuff to the Mesan leaders.

Then there's the problem of the Visigoth junction that hasn't been taken yet, or Anton would have gotten help sent to Mesa or a faster trip back to Manticore in a db ie more than twice as fast.


Where would he have gotten the dispatch boat?

lyonheart wrote:I suspect there is a considerable SLN base there of some sort, than prevents a small RMN/GA scouting force of securing the termini.

Exactly how many termini are like that is another question. ;)

Exactly what Eric Flint and RFC have in mind will be fascinating to read.

What besides Beowulf will happen before Mike gets to Mesa?

We may have some more 'scuffles' at a termini or two, more revolutionaries plotting, what else?

Which reminds me, shouldn't ONI and SIS have had agents on the ground on all these OFS systems since soon after Lynx was discovered?

While rebellion would be the last thing they'd want to get mixed up in, I'd expect the message from Spindle after Mobius surfaced, to such agents would be to lower expectations, encourage delay, to buy time.

Even if just a couple agents per system besides the embassy and commercial representatives, The Governor and Navy in Spindle should have been getting hints on conditions in surrounding systems including failed revolts like Loomis, so Mobius shouldn't have been too much of a surprise; after all if they'd been brain storming the worse thing Mesa could do to the SEM, they might have been more ready.

But that's another thread. 8-)

L


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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by lyonheart   » Tue May 20, 2014 3:58 pm

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Posts: 4853
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Hi JohnRoth,

Now I mainly agree with your points! :D

SNIPPED 4 BREVITY

While enforcing the Mesan constitution and law regarding seccie and slave rights will be interesting given they've never been enforced, I expect the right to bear arms to be critical to giving the seccies the confidence they can protect themselves while the gangs actually police their respective areas, NTM armed to defeat the MISD and Tabbies's etc, so I have no problem with #'s 1 & 2.

As for #3, I think sequestering all the slaver ships until ONI etc can go over them with a fine toothed comb is more likely.

#4 The MAlign has gone, and it will take considerable time to even start checking for missing persons, NTM Mike doesn't have much of that kind of staff given her personal involvement with investigating the OFS commissioners, NTM given how easily the MAlign slipped in and out of Mesa without ever being noticed, finding real evidence will be almost impossible to find.

#5 Seizing Mesan transtellars has probably been a dream of generations of dedicated justice, police and reformers throughout the SL etc, but how realistic is it to expect their books to be correct?

#6 Seems quite possible given her SDP's and ammunition ships, indeed the wormhole should have been taken first given the warning would take longer than the rest of the fleet [besides those still waiting in hyper to catch those fleeing] if the termini warning messenger got past whoever was waiting in hyper at the wormhole. ;)

Regarding Audrey, exactly!

She's going to have to interview Mike, to maintain her journalistic credentials, but will Alfredo be there to notice she's more than just a reporter?

That's the $64,000 question for me.

The next book is going to be such fun!

L


JohnRoth wrote:I'd also like to see how Adm. Henke handles Mesa. My suspicion is she'll do a short-term fix with respect to the seccies and require that the provisions in the Mesan constitution with respect to the slaves be enforced. Otherwise she'll kick the can down the road until the delegations from Torch and Beowulf arrive.

Beyond that, I can't really see the Mesan story as being all that central to the rest of the storyline. Maybe one of the two collaborations that David and Eric still have under contract.
lyonheart wrote:Hi JohnRoth,

I'm inclined to disagree regarding Mike's handling of Mesa.

I don't think she'll just kick the problems down the road.


Looking at what I said, I guess I wasn't all that clear. I think there's only one problem she'll wait on until the delegations from Beowulf, Torch and the Ballroom arrive. That's the permanent resolution of the genetic slave issue. The rest of it has fairly obvious solutions, or at least initial actions, in line with long-range Manticoran policy. To wit:

1. Eliminate the Seccy problem by giving them full citizenship. That would include political settlements with all of the district bosses. It's Mesa's problem to figure out how to make it work, get the resources to fix up the Seccy districts, etc.
2. Enforce the existing constitutional guarantees of good treatment for the genetic slaves. It's Mesa's problem, ditto.
3. Prohibit all transport of genetic slaves off-planet, including destroying all ships equipped as slavers.
4. Identify as many Alignment people as possible by identifying how many critical decision-makers have vanished.
5. Bottle up the Mesan transstellars, or at least the ones that can't justify their existance.
6. Deny the wormhole terminus to Solarian League traffic.

Then, of course, it'll be very interesting to see what happens when Audry O’Hanrahan asks for an interview.

lyonheart wrote:Granted she has some military imperatives, dealing with other forest fires, but putting Victor and Thandi in command of at least a squadron of old DD's [each with a marine company] though a squadron of Star Knight CA's would be better, plus a CLAC etc if and when she leaves before being reinforced [by Chein-lu and/or HH] after trashing the Mesan Space Navy and the system defenses will certainly help their authority on the ground.


I'm not sure what other forest fires you're referring to. She knows how many FF ships are in the Madras sector (essentially none). She's sent a ship to each of the systems in the sector. She's probably got a list of places she wants to go next, but right now taking Mesa, including the Mesan transstellars, out of play is on the short list. She can afford to wait until she's reinforced both militarily and politically.

lyonheart wrote:Of course that trust in Victor, without instructions or orders, will impress the Haven public; but I expect her to have done some research on the way to Mesa, besides being advised by Victor, Thandi, NTM Dusek etc, will make some impressively wise decisions, even if they appear off the cuff to the Mesan leaders.

Then there's the problem of the Visigoth junction that hasn't been taken yet, or Anton would have gotten help sent to Mesa or a faster trip back to Manticore in a db ie more than twice as fast.


Where would he have gotten the dispatch boat?

lyonheart wrote:I suspect there is a considerable SLN base there of some sort, than prevents a small RMN/GA scouting force of securing the termini.

Exactly how many termini are like that is another question. ;)

Exactly what Eric Flint and RFC have in mind will be fascinating to read.

What besides Beowulf will happen before Mike gets to Mesa?

We may have some more 'scuffles' at a termini or two, more revolutionaries plotting, what else?

Which reminds me, shouldn't ONI and SIS have had agents on the ground on all these OFS systems since soon after Lynx was discovered?

While rebellion would be the last thing they'd want to get mixed up in, I'd expect the message from Spindle after Mobius surfaced, to such agents would be to lower expectations, encourage delay, to buy time.

Even if just a couple agents per system besides the embassy and commercial representatives, The Governor and Navy in Spindle should have been getting hints on conditions in surrounding systems including failed revolts like Loomis, so Mobius shouldn't have been too much of a surprise; after all if they'd been brain storming the worse thing Mesa could do to the SEM, they might have been more ready.

But that's another thread. 8-)

L


[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue May 20, 2014 4:58 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi JohnRoth,

Now I mainly agree with your points! :D

SNIPPED 4 BREVITY


Yeah, I snipped the rest.

lyonheart wrote:While enforcing the Mesan constitution and law regarding seccie and slave rights will be interesting given they've never been enforced, I expect the right to bear arms to be critical to giving the seccies the confidence they can protect themselves while the gangs actually police their respective areas, NTM armed to defeat the MISD and Tabbies's etc, so I have no problem with #'s 1 & 2.


That's a hot button issue, so all I'll say is that a lot of what people who advocate "the right to bear arms" are quoting what some neo-pagans I know call "instant history." Any discussion of this belongs in the politics forum, and I can guarantee I won't be there to discuss it.

As far as I'm concerned, that is a prescription to instant chaos. While I'm certain that a lot of people in the Honorverse would like to see Mesa dissolve into chaos, I seriously doubt Mike would do anything to encourage it.

lyonheart wrote:As for #3, I think sequestering all the slaver ships until ONI etc can go over them with a fine toothed comb is more likely.


Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure what anyone would expect to find that simply dumping their computer logs wouldn't show.

lyonheart wrote:#4 The MAlign has gone, and it will take considerable time to even start checking for missing persons, NTM Mike doesn't have much of that kind of staff given her personal involvement with investigating the OFS commissioners, NTM given how easily the MAlign slipped in and out of Mesa without ever being noticed, finding real evidence will be almost impossible to find.


Why should Mike's staff do it? One of the first things she has to get across is that it's the Alignment, not the Ballroom, that was responsible for the mass killings and nuclear explosions. If she can get that point across, she'll have lots of help looking for traces.

lyonheart wrote:#5 Seizing Mesan transtellars has probably been a dream of generations of dedicated justice, police and reformers throughout the SL etc, but how realistic is it to expect their books to be correct?


Who cares? The transstellars are one of the major sources of corruption in the League and elsewhere. Cutting them off at the root will leave the tentacles flailing. The resulting chaos will probably be vastly amusing - viewed from a safe distance.

lyonheart wrote:#6 Seems quite possible given her SDP's and ammunition ships, indeed the wormhole should have been taken first given the warning would take longer than the rest of the fleet [besides those still waiting in hyper to catch those fleeing] if the termini warning messenger got past whoever was waiting in hyper at the wormhole. ;)

Regarding Audrey, exactly!

She's going to have to interview Mike, to maintain her journalistic credentials, but will Alfredo be there to notice she's more than just a reporter?

That's the $64,000 question for me.

The next book is going to be such fun!

L

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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue May 20, 2014 5:13 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
lyonheart wrote:As for #3, I think sequestering all the slaver ships until ONI etc can go over them with a fine toothed comb is more likely.


Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure what anyone would expect to find that simply dumping their computer logs wouldn't show.



I think it was PNS Vaubon that offered up a junior officer's diary that tipped Honor to Giscard's commerce raiding. Perhaps something similar would turn up in a detailed search of slave ships.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by lyonheart   » Tue May 20, 2014 5:39 pm

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Posts: 4853
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Hi JohnRoth,

I'm not a gun nut, but the seccies need to know and feel they are safe, regardless of who is the police.

Disbanding the MISD etc won't work, but if the seccies and slaves are now full citizens, they obviously can now bear arms rather than be put to death just for carrying etc.

Given how invisible the MAlign was to Mesans, ie the citizens, it's hard to believe so few were in the onion or needed to run it, so proving it to Mesans isn't going to be quick or easy.

L


JohnRoth wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi JohnRoth,

Now I mainly agree with your points! :D

SNIPPED 4 BREVITY


Yeah, I snipped the rest.

lyonheart wrote:While enforcing the Mesan constitution and law regarding seccie and slave rights will be interesting given they've never been enforced, I expect the right to bear arms to be critical to giving the seccies the confidence they can protect themselves while the gangs actually police their respective areas, NTM armed to defeat the MISD and Tabbies's etc, so I have no problem with #'s 1 & 2.


That's a hot button issue, so all I'll say is that a lot of what people who advocate "the right to bear arms" are quoting what some neo-pagans I know call "instant history." Any discussion of this belongs in the politics forum, and I can guarantee I won't be there to discuss it.

As far as I'm concerned, that is a prescription to instant chaos. While I'm certain that a lot of people in the Honorverse would like to see Mesa dissolve into chaos, I seriously doubt Mike would do anything to encourage it.

lyonheart wrote:As for #3, I think sequestering all the slaver ships until ONI etc can go over them with a fine toothed comb is more likely.


Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure what anyone would expect to find that simply dumping their computer logs wouldn't show.

lyonheart wrote:#4 The MAlign has gone, and it will take considerable time to even start checking for missing persons, NTM Mike doesn't have much of that kind of staff given her personal involvement with investigating the OFS commissioners, NTM given how easily the MAlign slipped in and out of Mesa without ever being noticed, finding real evidence will be almost impossible to find.


Why should Mike's staff do it? One of the first things she has to get across is that it's the Alignment, not the Ballroom, that was responsible for the mass killings and nuclear explosions. If she can get that point across, she'll have lots of help looking for traces.

lyonheart wrote:#5 Seizing Mesan transtellars has probably been a dream of generations of dedicated justice, police and reformers throughout the SL etc, but how realistic is it to expect their books to be correct?


Who cares? The transstellars are one of the major sources of corruption in the League and elsewhere. Cutting them off at the root will leave the tentacles flailing. The resulting chaos will probably be vastly amusing - viewed from a safe distance.

lyonheart wrote:#6 Seems quite possible given her SDP's and ammunition ships, indeed the wormhole should have been taken first given the warning would take longer than the rest of the fleet [besides those still waiting in hyper to catch those fleeing] if the termini warning messenger got past whoever was waiting in hyper at the wormhole. ;)

Regarding Audrey, exactly!

She's going to have to interview Mike, to maintain her journalistic credentials, but will Alfredo be there to notice she's more than just a reporter?

That's the $64,000 question for me.

The next book is going to be such fun!

L

Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 20, 2014 6:47 pm

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I doubt that the GA would settle for anything less than a complete end to genetic slavery and emancipation of the slaves wherever they might be found. The notion that on Mesa, some constitutional right of better treatment for slaves makes no sense at all. The slaves will be freed.
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue May 20, 2014 7:54 pm

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n7axw wrote:I doubt that the GA would settle for anything less than a complete end to genetic slavery and emancipation of the slaves wherever they might be found. The notion that on Mesa, some constitutional right of better treatment for slaves makes no sense at all. The slaves will be freed.


H. L. Mencken wrote:For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.


See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_t ... intentions

I don't know whether that applies here, but whenever I think of the situation I think of the pre-Civil War South in the U.S. In particular, see Piketty p. 158-163 for exactly how important slavery was to the economy of the Old South. It takes an outsider to use one of the ugliest of the post-slavery words in the situation 1865-1960: apartheid. (Don't take chart 4.10 at visual value - he's playing fast and loose with the x-axis. There are reasons, but it means that the visual impression is kind of misleading.)
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Re: Interview with David Weber & Eric Flint - Cauldron of Gh
Post by n7axw   » Tue May 20, 2014 11:57 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
n7axw wrote:I doubt that the GA would settle for anything less than a complete end to genetic slavery and emancipation of the slaves wherever they might be found. The notion that on Mesa, some constitutional right of better treatment for slaves makes no sense at all. The slaves will be freed.


H. L. Mencken wrote:For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.


See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_t ... intentions

I don't know whether that applies here, but whenever I think of the situation I think of the pre-Civil War South in the U.S. In particular, see Piketty p. 158-163 for exactly how important slavery was to the economy of the Old South. It takes an outsider to use one of the ugliest of the post-slavery words in the situation 1865-1960: apartheid. (Don't take chart 4.10 at visual value - he's playing fast and loose with the x-axis. There are reasons, but it means that the visual impression is kind of misleading.)


I stand by my post.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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