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Why did Mesa ever develop Congo

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Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by SWM   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:20 am

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JohnRoth wrote:The other issue is that The Twins are an anomaly, and, according to the conversation between the McBryde brothers in ToF, they'd "fully mined the military implications forty years ago." Which implies that there are things to learn from a close study that have military value other than its strategic back door to the Haven sector.

Actually, the text says (bold added for emphasis):
We settled most of the military implications decades ago. I'm sure someone else's still working on the theory behind it full time, but we've pretty much mined out the military concerns.

They mined out the military concerns, and settled the military implications. Settling implications and mining concerns does not really imply technological development. This text could simply mean they looked into whether the unique features of the system would cause problems for defending the wormholes, or whether the wormholes would be reliable for military uses at some future point. But it could mean some new development was made from analyzing the Twins.
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Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:30 pm

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If a Mesan/Alignment wormhole exploration ship came out of the Torch end of the wormhole and the system right next to that wormhole has a planet that can support humans living out in the open why would they NOT claim and colonize the planet?

If for nothing else, it provides that a front (Manpower) owns the system and with a colony in-place would control the space around it. I would suspect that any planet where humans can live out on the surface without domes or having to deal with something like Cerberus (where none of the life forms can be used to support human life) or will kill off any terrestrial plants and animals, people will find that there should be something there that have potential for pharmaceutical development. That there turned out to be a lot of that was good fortune for Mesa/Manpower. It gives them a valid reason for setting up on the planet, establishing at least an orbital transfer station and orbital industry related to drug production and resource processing within the system.

That same ownership would also let them restrict access to the system. I don’t recall what the back-story is on what they told the rest of the universe as to how they found and auqired it but they would be within their rights to not let anyone in. They could send ships to the near systems – like Erewhon and Maya- to announce ownership and that while they anticipated probably making purchases from those and other systems, all traffic would be handled by Manpower owned or chartered ships and no others would be allowed to enter or trade with the system.
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Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:57 pm

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Hi SWM,

Didn't we have a hint from RFC a couple of years ago that by the time the MAlg wars ended, some warships could generate their own wormholes, but it was too expensive for typical commercial freighters?

At least for the time being. ;)

L


SWM wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:The other issue is that The Twins are an anomaly, and, according to the conversation between the McBryde brothers in ToF, they'd "fully mined the military implications forty years ago." Which implies that there are things to learn from a close study that have military value other than its strategic back door to the Haven sector.

Actually, the text says (bold added for emphasis):
We settled most of the military implications decades ago. I'm sure someone else's still working on the theory behind it full time, but we've pretty much mined out the military concerns.

They mined out the military concerns, and settled the military implications. Settling implications and mining concerns does not really imply technological development. This text could simply mean they looked into whether the unique features of the system would cause problems for defending the wormholes, or whether the wormholes would be reliable for military uses at some future point. But it could mean some new development was made from analyzing the Twins.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Theemile   » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:59 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi SWM,

Didn't we have a hint from RFC a couple of years ago that by the time the MAlg wars ended, some warships could generate their own wormholes, but it was too expensive for typical commercial freighters?

At least for the time being. ;)

L




I remember that hint as well. I believe it was related to
Mesa's research.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Garth 2   » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:14 pm

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It may have been that Mesa (Manpower or the relevant pharmaceutical company) didn't actually know about the termini when it was encouraged to take custody of the planet.
A possible rough timeline is below:

MA found Congo sometime ago whilst exploring the 'twins'
(recognised the opportunities for a back door in the Haven Sector)
The MA had no interest in the planet and kept quite about the termini
An effectively independent review of Congo (by a Mesa organisation) highlighted the pharmaceutical potential resulting in some interest (also the possibility of using the planet as transhipping point for slave labour)
The Mesan authorities therefore take over the planet due to the wealth potential, but the MA discreetly direct the development
Eventually an unofficial identification of the wormhole occurs but Mesa (officially) doesn't have the resources or technical know how to exploit or review the termini and rumors start to be heard
The MA discreetly discourages the official Mesa authorities from researching the termini
Then the events in Crown of Slaves occurs

Overall don't forget the MA doesn't complete control Mesa, it can direct actions and piggy back its own operations through it but it can't stop them from doing things if the people normally in charge want to (e.g. the attack on Countess of Tor)
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RE: Now I Am Totally Confused
Post by HB of CJ   » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:44 pm

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Now I am totally confused here. Normal condition. What exactly came first? The planet Congo or the worm hole? And...does the Congo, (Torch) wormhole go directly to Mesa? Does the Alliance know this? I really need a timeline.

Somehow I think I have missed a story or perhaps a book here.

Also, for what it is not worth, I still think there is another warp junction from Mesa that only Mesa knows about....and it goes to their secret ship building base. Just me. HB of CJ (old confused coot) :) I love this forum. No embarrassment.
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Re: RE: Now I Am Totally Confused
Post by Grashtel   » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:26 am

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HB of CJ wrote:Now I am totally confused here. Normal condition. What exactly came first? The planet Congo or the worm hole? And...does the Congo, (Torch) wormhole go directly to Mesa? Does the Alliance know this? I really need a timeline.

Somehow I think I have missed a story or perhaps a book here.

Also, for what it is not worth, I still think there is another warp junction from Mesa that only Mesa knows about....and it goes to their secret ship building base. Just me. HB of CJ (old confused coot) :) I love this forum. No embarrassment.

You obviously have missed something as your ideas are explicitly contradicted by information in the books. Have you read the "Wages of Sin" series ("Crown of Slaves", "Torch of Freedom", and "Cauldron of Ghosts")?

The following is the actual layout of the Alignment held wormholes and probably has spoilers for you so read at your own risk.

The wormhole from Congo goes to a red dwarf referred to as "The Twins" because it has the unique anomaly of having two separate wormholes, ie ones that are not linked in a junction, the other of which goes to Felix. Felix has an otherwise normal four terminus junction that the Alignment has managed to keep secret, the Felix system is in close proximity to Mannerhime -one of the Renaissance Factor worlds- but has disputed ownership so has not been developed. Another terminus of the Felix junction leads to Darius, the Alignment's secret shipyard and with the evacuation of Mesa their primary base. The destinations of the other two termini of the Felix junction are currently unknown.

Mesa has only one wormhole, a terminus of the Visigoth junction and any other links would break the known rules of Honorverse wormholes as badly as The Twins does so would be noted. Visigoth is a Solarian core world 60ly to Beowulf and is IIRC also a member of the Renaissance Factor, it has a two terminus junction one of which leads to Mesa but the destination of the other terminus has yet to be revealed.
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Re: RE: Now I Am Totally Confused
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:32 am

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HB of CJ wrote:Now I am totally confused here. Normal condition. What exactly came first? The planet Congo or the worm hole? And...does the Congo, (Torch) wormhole go directly to Mesa? Does the Alliance know this? I really need a timeline.

Somehow I think I have missed a story or perhaps a book here.

Also, for what it is not worth, I still think there is another warp junction from Mesa that only Mesa knows about....and it goes to their secret ship building base. Just me. HB of CJ (old confused coot) :) I love this forum. No embarrassment.


To expand on what Grashtel said: There is a four-terminus junction in a system called Felix. One terminus goes to The Twins, which is the red dwarf Grashtel mentioned, and then on to Congo. (Congo, by the way, is probably a reference to "King Leopold's Congo," if you want to track the reference down). A second terminus of Felix is at Darius, the Alignment's arsenal planet. Where the other two go hasn't been mentioned. The only people who know any of this are in the MAlign as well as a few people on Mannerheim, who only know part of it, and are treating it as a state secret.

Visigoth has a two terminus junction, one of which goes to Mesa. We don't know anything beyond that, including the exact route from Mesa to Darius.

David has said that there are no systems with more than one wormhole terminus, The Twins being the glaring exception. Also, there are no hyper bridges between junctions.

It depends on what you mean by "discovered." Did anyone know the star was there? For a long time. Given that it's an F5 (really bright), we would know the star is there - at least if Weber and Flint were actually using current survey data.

The system, however, was first surveyed by a ship finding out where the second wormhole terminus at The Twins went; they named the planet Verdant Vista. Then it was claimed by Mesa's transtellar Mesa Pharmaceuticals. The survey happened approximately 200 years prior to story time, that is, in the early 1700s PD. When Mesa Pharmaceuticals acquired the planet is unknown, but it was some time after then.

Crown of Slaves deals with how the Ballroom got possession and renamed it Torch.
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Thank You
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:42 pm

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I have not yet read "Torch of Freedom" or "Cauldron of Ghosts". HB of CJ (old coot)
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Re: Why did Mesa ever develop Congo
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:27 pm

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davevw wrote:...

The pharmaceuticals they were getting couldn't have been worth that much.


I don´t recall the exact wording but i do believe the drugs were considered VERY valuable.
Unique IIRC?
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