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What I don't like

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Re: What I don't like
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:17 pm

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I don't usually get directly involved in discussions of my writing style, characters, etc., from a critical perspective. There are a lot of reasons for that, including the fact that it could easily turn into a bottomless swamp if I started trying to "defend" or "explained" why I'm doing something. Another reason, frankly, is that readers are fully entitled to their opinions, even if I do occasionally wish that they might express them a bit more . . . tactfully, shall we say? :) And yet another reason is that communicating through an electronic interface rather than face-to-face creates all sorts of opportunities for misunderstandings.

In this instance, though, there are I think a few things that I should probably explain — or at least expand upon — slightly.

First, there is most definitely an American bent — or even a bias, I suppose — in my writing which stems from the fact that I happen to be an American. Sorry about that, but it's one of those little facts that I'm sort of stuck with. ;)

Second, as someone else has already pointed out, I deal with sex and sexuality when I think it is germane to the story I'm telling and the characters about whom I'm writing at any given moment. If I think it will contribute to the storyline, you will see it discussed; if I don't think it contributes to the storyline, you won't see it discussed.

Third, I think it is exactly correct to argue that when building a believable (or at least a textured) imaginary future history it has to be built from current day or historical building blocks. That is, I don't really believe that a convincing future history could be constructed without using referent material which the readers are going to be familiar with. Material which has "handles" they can use to manipulate and internalize the artificial construct which is being offered for their entertainment.

Fourth, I think the most effective way to argue in defense of change is to assume that by the time we get two thousand years into the future, the change in question will be a “done deal,” so thoroughly accepted by and internalized by the future society that it’s difficult for them to conceive of the time when the change (from our perspective) wasn’t part of the natural order of their universe. Hence the fact that until W.E.B. du Havel specifically made the point in a political conversation, I don’t believe that any “in-universe” character had ever referred to the fact of Queen Elizabeth’s or Mike Henke’s African heritage. In fact, a friend of mine who is black had actually read the first four novels before he realized that was the case. And when I wanted to give Honor some good old-fashioned sexism to deal with, I had to create a logical reason for there to be a society which was so backward in that respect that her gender ever became an issue in the first place.

Fifth, while I haven’t brought it front and center in any primary character’s relationships, I rather thought that the diversity of romantic and sexual relationships in the Honorverse had been established as part of the background. There are Allison’s thoughts about Beowulf — including the fact that she is relentlessly monogamous in a society where that clearly is not the norm. There are also Allison’s thought about the bisexuality and homosexuality which has been a part of Grayson due to the sexually unbalanced birthrate predating Grayson’s alliance with Manticore. As someone has already mentioned, Emily Alexander-Harrington has commented on the fact that once upon a time she would have been physically attracted to Honor even if Hamish had never been part of the mix. I haven’t dwelt upon the mechanics of the relationships of anyone when those relationships have not been pertinent to the stories I was telling, and that isn’t likely to change.

Sixth, the mixture of names and ethnicities within the Star Kingdom represent the original colonization mix, which came from a specific geographical area. Over the last four centuries or so, since the discovery of the Junction, quite a lot of additional and very different components have been added to that mix, but place names, aristocratic titles, etc., were all established before that influx, so there is going to be an overwhelmingly North American and Western European flavor to them.


Seventh, if there is any particular bias towards “bad guy” surnames in my writing, I am unaware of it. It’s also not something I intend to spend a lot of time worrying about in the future, because, frankly, I think it’s a nonissue. Moreover, I would point out that in the Honorverse, family names more often than not tend to be divorced from the national, ethnic, or racial origins of the names. That doesn’t mean that there is never any such connection; it simply means that you are going to get platinum-haired, blue-eyed, ivory-skinned characters with African names and that you are also going to get red-haired, green-eyed characters with names from the subcontinent of India. I might also point out that sense I am writing from an American centric perspective (being, as I think I pointed out above, and American myself), I am coming at this from the perspective of the incredible melange of family names found here in the United States. As such, there is a tendency in my mind to decouple last names and perceived connections to historical groups, nationalities, or any particular history associated with them. I happen to think that those sorts of direct connections between names and ethnicities are more likely to persist on Old Earth than on any of the planets which were colonized later because they have so much more in depth and history behind them here than they will someplace like, say, Beowulf or Sphinx, but it’s not something that rises to the point of my making an issue of it in the stories. Oh, and for what it's worth, I remind my readership that my beautiful twin daughters are as Asian as Allison Harrington and — like Allison — rejoice in a relentlessly "Western" surname. :D


Eighth, yes, Christianity has survived to the 41st Century. So have quite a few other religions, although Christianity is admittedly the one which has been most visible. You might take a look at the conversation Honor has with her assigned chaplain in Flag in Exile when she is discussing the religious mixture aboard one of the Manticoran ships on which she served. I don’t feel any compulsion to create a non-Christian central character simply in order to be politically correct or sensitive, but by the same token there are certainly characters in the books who are not Christians. Since I am myself a Methodist lay speaker, and since my own beliefs are fairly central to who I am and how I view my own world and the greater universe beyond it, I suppose some might argue that I am captive to my parochialism. Obviously I don’t see it that way, however, and one of the consequences of reading my books is that all of you are just going to have to put up with me. ;)

They were a couple of additional points I had intended to address, but part of that parochial Methodist lay speaker background of mine is getting in the way: I need to take my kids to a youth group meeting to stuff plastic eggs for the community Saturday Easter egg hunt sponsored by our church every year. And so, on that note, I take my hurried departure. :)

I hope the insight into my thinking and writing which I’ve offered above will at least serve as a starting point for informed critiques of it.

Take care, all. And for those it won’t offend, God bless.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: What I don't like
Post by pokermind   » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:58 pm

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Way to go David. It's a fact given our own culture is is difficult to truly understand another. Historians deal with changing culture, at one time overt racism was a 'scientific and religious' fact to most people. Ethnocentrism rears its ugly head in Anthropology. Cultural values vary mighty. I think David has done a good job and, I enjoy his books, as do most of us or we would not be on these forums.

Poker
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Re: What I don't like
Post by Yow   » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:36 pm

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Hans wrote:Hello,

first of all, if I would think D.W is writing racist or homophobe, I wouldn't even read the books.
But I read quite all.
And why? Because the plot is very interesting, not only the military side, I like very much the poltical side. The SL big, fat and arrogant frozen in its poltical system. with
Ok?

Now to my critc:
The most of you writing here are probably americans, right? Can you imagine, that looking from outside, you have another view. I learned this in the eighties when I spent a year in the US for working (setting up grinders).
Suddenly i realized, that I had a different, far more critical, view on anything what happened in Germany (my country).
And for me and my view, it is written more or less from an american point of view.
Of course - D.W is an american.

Edit:
SaganamiFan brought pretty it close to the point:
And to everyone, my comment wasn't meant as a critcism of David's writing or that I miss me some sexy gay action in the novels. Not at all. Hutch's comment really gets closest to what I actually meant; David has created a complex vision of the future that examines social shifts and changes in a diversified mega-society, and I'm pretty sure LGBT people (I don't consider equal rights for this group of fellow human beings, or the acknowledging of their existence, a "fad") would be a part of that.


Hello Hans,

I agree that we have a different view. Its been my experience when I travelled abroad also.
I wanted to know if you or anyone else for that matter thought these names were foreign or exotically new to you. Myself, I see these names on a regular basis.

Unless a person is speaking or acting with different social customs from another country that I haven't seen expressed here before, I don't usually suspect they are not from around here. Just about every single name Ive come across in DWs books are "American" ( :D It washed up on our shores, mine, mine, I called it! :lol: ).

I would like to know if you have read both the English and German versions? If you have, does it translate well or do you feel you get a different reading than from the other? I notice this when I watch a foriegn film translated by two different translators. Some wording doesn't sit well with what I am watching, but how would I know if a book was translated well?

Cthia's father ~ "Son, do not cater to the common belief that a person has to earn respect. That is not true. You should give every person respect right from the start. What a person has to earn is your continued respect!"
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Re: What I don't like
Post by Yow   » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:38 pm

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:o Good God :shock: I wrote too slow. So many jumped in with guns blazing.

Cthia's father ~ "Son, do not cater to the common belief that a person has to earn respect. That is not true. You should give every person respect right from the start. What a person has to earn is your continued respect!"
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Re: What I don't like
Post by n7axw   » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:39 pm

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David has just made the points I would have expected him to make. I made the point earlier about reading fiction to escape the "politically correct" mess. While I would affirm the assertion that no one should be judged on the basis of things such as skin color, gender or gender identity, ethnic background or religion, The whole thing often seems so thin skined and touchy that it frankly gets a bit wearisome.

Can we just relax a bit and work on treating each other well? I have identified myself as a retired Lutheran minister, but if you are something different such as Atheist, Muslim, Catholic, or whatever, that is fine. I don't owe you agreement, but I do owe you basic respect as a human being and for the journey you have taken which has made you who you are.Comparing beliefs is fine, but I have no need to rub your nose in our disagreements or to change you in any way.

Finally I am far from perfect, make no pretense to the contrary, nor do I expect perfection from you. There is room for all of us and it would be my hope that we accept that.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What I don't like
Post by roseandheather   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:37 am

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I have one thing, and one thing only, to add to this discussion.

In case it's escaped any of your notice - which it probably hasn't, given my well-known predilections where certain petite diplomats are concerned - I'm bisexual.

And the last goddamned thing I ever want to see, outside of books written specifically to make a point about that sort of thing, is a character sharing my orientation as a case of tokenism. I also have multiple gay and lesbian friends who feel similarly.

My orientation is not an accessory you can add to a character to increase the political correctness of your work. Thank you, and good night.
~*~


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Re: What I don't like
Post by Michael Everett   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:56 am

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I myself completely fail to see what is so important about whether someone is gay, straight, curved, bi, whatever.
So long as it's consensual and everyone is old enough to fully understand what's going on, it's fine.

It's not like being gay is banned by the bible. The part that many quote as "man will not lie with man as like husband with wife" is a mis-translation. If you translate straight from the original Aramaic, it is "man will not lie with CHILD as like husband with wife".

Although that does raise some rather uncomfortable questions about Mohammed's favourite wife...

If, however, you want a well-written book with a hero who just happens to be gay, I would really recommend the Last Herald Mage books, Magic's Pawn, Magic's Promise and Magic's Price by Mercedes Lackey. I personally have them n my bookshelf in well-worn paperback versions.
Perhaps someday they'll be available on Kindle...
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Re: What I don't like
Post by Vince   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:32 am

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Some thoughts on science fiction:

One of the characteristics of good science fiction is that it pushes at a society's boundaries. That said, it can't push too far past them or else the listeners/readers/audience either will actively reject the ideas being presented, fail to understand them at all, or simply lose interest in the author's material.

Most successful science fiction has (main and/or secondary) characters that are humans, neither saints or devils, with all the strengths, weaknesses and foibles of humanity (in varying proportions) in circumstances that are extraordinary and challenge them to rise to the occasion [and if they don't or don't succeed in doing so, the circumstances extract a cost from the character(s)]. The audience can recognize and identify with the characters, as well as the events and background of the story.

A (science or any other genre) fiction author (in any medium) has to make the both the story and the characters interesting enough to keep the audience engaged, or risk losing the audience. One of the worst things that can be said about a story (any story, any genre) is the Eight Deadly Words.
-------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: What I don't like
Post by Hans   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:52 am

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Hello,

my god :o what have i done?

@David:
There was no offense meant, like I wrote in the post before.

@Yow

I agree that we have a different view. Its been my experience when I travelled abroad also.
I wanted to know if you or anyone else for that matter thought these names were foreign or exotically new to you. Myself, I see these names on a regular basis.

I myself have a serbian family name (which appears in one of the Books :mrgreen: ), my parents are Hungarians with mostly German, but also Hungarian, Gipsy, French andandand roots.
All this names are familiar to me, besides my family roots, I grew up and still live in Stuttgart, which is one of the most international places in Europe (~23% are foreigners & ~40% have an immigration background). As a technician I worked in USA, & Italy. The company I work for right now, is one of the Big 3 audit companies and a part of my job is to communicate with people from all over the world. I have a break now, later I got ta set up a video conference with India, Britain and Cleveland.

I would like to know if you have read both the English and German versions? If you have, does it translate well or do you feel you get a different reading than from the other? I notice this when I watch a foriegn film translated by two different translators. Some wording doesn't sit well with what I am watching, but how would I know if a book was translated well?

Sorry I can't judge the translation :roll:
Because the first books I read in German, never in English and since 'Shadow Of Saganami' I read all the books in English.
But I have seen a lot of movies in both languages.
In the USA I saw a old german movie , that was undertiteled. I got a couple of laughs exclusivly. Also when I watched american movies in Germany. Do you know the movie 'Smoke'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_(film)
In the opening sequence, the guys in the tobacco shop of 'Auggie' are talking 'bout the '86 New York Mets title in the World Series. Anybody but me was bored! I have been the only one who could follow the story - 'Moooookieee' because right at that time I lived in New York and was watching and understanding a game thats important to the Americans, but almost nobody else outside the USA.
Why do I mention this? It shows that the cultural background is an important part of the communication.
Another example - if we speak about football, we're speaking about two games which have nothing in common. Not even the Ball :D
I'm with you - understanding the language does not mean to understand one another automatically.
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Re: What I don't like
Post by Gun Boat Diplomacy   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:39 pm

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I've always felt (and believe its been mentioned a time or two) that the sexual mores of people (in the star empire at least) are nobodies business but their own. in fact I believe that Honor's mother has stated a time or three, that if she were so inclined, she could have had any number of women during her life.
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