Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

jgnfld wrote:
Right here is the nub of the generalist superhuman fantasy. We can likely build superish-humans along certain lines who can outcompete other humans in certain specific environments. Change the environment and suddenly that superish-human set of traits might well be selected against. Consider a line of Honors as hunter-gatherers on a low gravity, low caloric-production world, for example. Not a likely survival candidate.

Good point. Humans have mainly survived by being an ultra-generalist and being able to survive everywhere. It was only after a long while (and with upward trends in medicine and technology) that we started to intensively specialize. Even then, humans specialized in a broad (general) range of areas.

Perhaps, the Alignment plans on designing whole worlds and systems for their superior humans to inhabit?

Amaroq wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
At the same time, the Alignment is prepared to tolerate highly negative consequences — like a taste for sadism slaked using genetic slaves — if that seems advantageous to its purposes. This means, on the one hand, that the Alignment is prepared to “throw away” its mistakes, whereas Beowulf argues that medical ethics preclude the pursuit of a desired outcome at the likely cost of being compelled to decide to cull an individual or an entire line of individuals. On the other hand, the Alignment is prepared to build in negatives in order to achieve positives (as defined by the Alignment), which reminds Beowulf all to clearly of the Asian super soldiers of the Final War.

It seems like the Alignment is prepared to treat the human animal the same way we treat domestic animals. Humans have selectively bred these animals for centuries in some cases looking to enhance specific characteristics. However, we get negative unintended effects that the animal either has to live with or die from (i.e bulldogs' breathing problems and the fragility of the leg bones in thoroughbred horses). Beowulf is not willing to cross that line with humans while Mesa is (and has).

Limitations that we presently see because our only technique is planned breeding and then waiting to see what comes of it may not exist in the future, where the genome can be tweaked to order, and where they have presumably build up major data bases and models of how these things work.

The characteristics you mention could be fixed very easily by outcrosses - but then the result wouldn't be a pedigreed bulldog or a thoroughbred race horse.

I seriously don't think this is a limitation on what's possible; it's a limitation, like a lot of other limitations that DW has designed into his universe, because it's the way he wants his story to go.

Lois McMaster Bujold has taken a different mix of genetic possibilities for her stories. See, for example, Cetaganda.

The thing that irritates me is when people take the limitations in a story (whether or not they're really there) and try to project it onto reality. Or vice versa.

Neither version is in it's self wrong, after all the original 'Detweiler' vision does have a lot going for it, after all who wouldn't want perfect eyesight, strong immune systems, better muscles, higher IQs etc. for themselves or their children.

However this kind of 'uplift' would never be universally available, resulting in a steady separation of the 'uplifted' and 'normal' (probably resulting in two overlapping bell curves)

On the other hand the Beowulf code goes to far in locking down the potential for human growth, after all if people wanted to modify themselves to live in zero-g or underwater why shouldn't they?

Overall, if Detweiler legacy hadn't gone down the route of slavery it would have probably resulted in the Beowulf code being a good middle ground.

Garth 2 wrote:Neither version is in it's self wrong, after all the original 'Detweiler' vision does have a lot going for it, after all who wouldn't want perfect eyesight, strong immune systems, better muscles, higher IQs etc. for themselves or their children.

However this kind of 'uplift' would never be universally available, resulting in a steady separation of the 'uplifted' and 'normal' (probably resulting in two overlapping bell curves)

On the other hand the Beowulf code goes to far in locking down the potential for human growth, after all if people wanted to modify themselves to live in zero-g or underwater why shouldn't they?

Overall, if Detweiler legacy hadn't gone down the route of slavery it would have probably resulted in the Beowulf code being a good middle ground.

There is a podcast thread posted this morning on the Honorverse with a link to a discussion on this very subject. Listening to it crystalized a quite a bit for me. I strongly recommend it to anyone who'se interested. It is an interview with David and Eric on Caldron of Ghosts and airs this very subject.

Don

I would point out that this discussion alludes to this debate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

If we assume that the basic premis that various racial and ethnic groups have variations in average IQ, the variance within the groups is greater than the variation between the groups.

In Mesan society, the variance within the Slave and Seccies seems to be greater than the variation between the Slaves and Seccies verses the Gamma lines. However; the Alpha lines might be a different matter. Unfortunately; the fundamental presumptions of Mesan society are that the Alphas are superior to the Gammas who are superior to the Seccies who are superior to the Slaves. (Where are the Beta lines?). Mesa (or the Mesan Alignment) will inevitably impose social stratification based on genetic profiles rather than allow a meritocracy. Even worse, they will engage in culling.

The trouble with the Detweiler Code is that it has morphed essentially into a parasitic gang that now wants to parasitize openly. Why? Because now they think they can get away with it and put themselves at the top politically as well as genetically.

They are willing to skim whatever they need--genetically or productively--from the rest of humanity at whatever human cost it takes and to distill it for themselves.

Their aim will be to use what they take from the rest of humanity (i.e., code snippets) to maintain their position in order to protect their status and ability to continue to parasitize upon the rest of humanity.

The have lost their humanity and are parasitic upon it in the same way all criminal gangs lose their humanity and parasitize on the rest: The moral structure of parasites means that any consideration for any rights the host is completely subordinated to the needs of the parasitic gang.

This may sound strong, but it is precisely the feelings they will engender in the main run of diverse humanity that will lead to their defeat in the end. (If not now, then someday 10 books down the road! )

And in truth I'm not sure how else followers of such a code could evolve over time.

Garth 2 wrote:Neither version is in it's self wrong, after all the original 'Detweiler' vision does have a lot going for it, after all who wouldn't want perfect eyesight, strong immune systems, better muscles, higher IQs etc. for themselves or their children.

However this kind of 'uplift' would never be universally available, resulting in a steady separation of the 'uplifted' and 'normal' (probably resulting in two overlapping bell curves)

On the other hand the Beowulf code goes to far in locking down the potential for human growth, after all if people wanted to modify themselves to live in zero-g or underwater why shouldn't they?

Overall, if Detweiler legacy hadn't gone down the route of slavery it would have probably resulted in the Beowulf code being a good middle ground.

So it definitely seems that most people might agree with the original scope of the Detweiler vision (up to a point) but think that they've drastically veered away from the main purpose. On the other hand, Beowulf had initially over-reacted with their Code but considering the past abuses (ie. the Final War) and what's upcoming (the whole MAlign thing) it appears that to err on the side of caution is the best idea.

I'm certainly NOT agreeable!

I see no way in which you can embark on a plan to breed superlines (population-sized groups) of people without devolving the way the Malignment has devolved.

The one possibility I see for doing this without the results we are seeing is for them to emigrate completely away from the human sphere. But then they would lose access to the new new snippets they need and there we are right back at the beginning.

Amaroq wrote:So it definitely seems that most people might agree with the original scope of the Detweiler vision (up to a point) but think that they've drastically veered away from the main purpose. On the other hand, Beowulf had initially over-reacted with their Code but considering the past abuses (ie. the Final War) and what's upcoming (the whole MAlign thing) it appears that to err on the side of caution is the best idea.

n7axw wrote:

Garth 2 wrote:Neither version is in it's self wrong, after all the original 'Detweiler' vision does have a lot going for it, after all who wouldn't want perfect eyesight, strong immune systems, better muscles, higher IQs etc. for themselves or their children.

However this kind of 'uplift' would never be universally available, resulting in a steady separation of the 'uplifted' and 'normal' (probably resulting in two overlapping bell curves)

On the other hand the Beowulf code goes to far in locking down the potential for human growth, after all if people wanted to modify themselves to live in zero-g or underwater why shouldn't they?

Overall, if Detweiler legacy hadn't gone down the route of slavery it would have probably resulted in the Beowulf code being a good middle ground.

There is a podcast thread posted this morning on the Honorverse with a link to a discussion on this very subject. Listening to it crystalized a quite a bit for me. I strongly recommend it to anyone who'se interested. It is an interview with David and Eric on Caldron of Ghosts and airs this very subject.

Don

I listened to the podcast. IIRC, David is quite specific that what the Beowulf Code prohibits is any attempt to create Homo Superior. Beowulf doesn't care if you want your kids to be smarter, stronger, cuter, have hair in the exact pattern of your favorite tartan, etc. If you have the money, go for it. (Well, maybe not the hair. )

The underlying motivation is to prevent the outbreak of racism, which has apparently vanished from the Honorverse (or at least most parts of the Honorverse).

There's probably a clause in there that would keep you from trying to create an angel - see Heinlein's The Menace From Earth for motivation. Although I could easily see someone with six limbs, two of which were wings, plus an anti-grav belt, making it work.

jgnfld wrote:I'm certainly NOT agreeable!

I see no way in which you can embark on a plan to breed superlines (population-sized groups) of people without devolving the way the Malignment has devolved.

The one possibility I see for doing this without the results we are seeing is for them to emigrate completely away from the human sphere. But then they would lose access to the new new snippets they need and there we are right back at the beginning.

Why does this matter? It's not like there's something "magic" in a snippet of DNA.

Granted, if you want to add a characteristic, it's a good idea to check for how other species have done it. That's why they wanted some treecats to experiment with. But simply being able to splice in their DNA and come up with a fully functional and properly integrated phenotypical characteristic?

Ain't gonna happen. It would be like trying to make a flying car by bolting the wings from a Cesna on a Ford Escort.

Or by trying to make an angel by mixing human, Sphinxian and bird DNA.