Naval genies in a bottle

Tenshinai wrote:Never mind, it´s an anime thing.

Sorry I missed that reference. Completely over my head. Not much into anime. I like it, just never had the chance to immerse myself. Nuku Nuku Cat Girl! Damn, she is hot!

cthia wrote:Well here I tend to disagree. Granted this may be built upon incorrect assumptions on my part, specifically in the area of LAC jocks. I was under the impression that LACs had pretty much the maneuverability of our own attack planes and Manticore's favorable exhange rates was not just a product of its advanced hardware but its jock's fighter capability developed by Scotty Tremaine aboard Alice Truman's Colacs.

TENSHINAI wrote:
Nothing like it. It´s more like using speedboats around naval ships than using airplanes.

LACs compared to ships have merely a 30-50% advantage in "speed", rather than a 300-5000% advantage that you find between wetnavy ships and aircraft.

The basic mindset have some similarities, but the tactics does not.

Here I think you misunderstand me. Completely my fault. I tend to make things too terse, or not terse enough. Cum se cum sa. (comme ci comme ça)

I was referring to Manticoran LACS when initially introduced, facing RHN LACS. LAC on LAC engagements!

cthia wrote:Honor didn't seem to think it could be done without computer assistance.

Well that´s my impression from the books at least. Not that it CANT be done, but that if you do it, it´s going to be slow going, difficult and if you mess up(which is likely), you´re potenteially in for BIG problems.[/quote]

CoW.
It wasn't as if Dobrescu or the astrogator on any other starship did his calculations by hand. The entire idea was ridiculous! That was what computers were for in the first place, and if a ship suffered such a massive computer failure as to take Astrogation off-line, figuring out where it was was going to be the least of its problems. She'd just love to see anyone try to manage a hyper generator, an inertial compensator, or the grav pinch of a fusion plant without computer support! But the Powers That Were weren't particularly interested in the opinions of one Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington, and so she sweated her way through the entire old-fashioned, labor-intensive, frustrating, stupid quill-pen-and-parchment business like the obedient little snotty she was.

SWM wrote:What you are basically talking about, Cthia, is the development of Mesan Dorsai.

Since they have known since the beginning that they would eventually need a military fleet, I'm certain they have built a military academy for their upcoming officers. It is likely that many people on Darius have been trained from childhood toward the military career. But I am unconvinced that the Alignment has managed to do very much toward developing the perfect strategist.

For one thing, there is the entire question of what constitutes a good strategy. Remember that there has been no major interstellar wars for hundreds of years, and even those were generally small affairs. How would Mesa decide whether one gene line is better at strategy than another? They could do simulations, and reenactments of old battles, but that does not seem very effective.

But they've probably tried to do what they could. I expect what they generally came up with is a boost to intelligence and lots of training.

They would still lack the institutional memory essential to the training of young officers because that requires experience MAlign doesn't have.

Don

n7axw wrote:They would still lack the institutional memory essential to the training of young officers because that requires experience MAlign doesn't have.

Not necessarily. What was the institutional memory of the IJN when it obliterated the Russian fleet?

Here I think you misunderstand me. Completely my fault. I tend to make things too terse, or not terse enough. Cum se cum sa. (comme ci comme ça)

I was referring to Manticoran LACS when initially introduced, facing RHN LACS. LAC on LAC engagements!

Yes, but like i said, that´s more like speedboats in wet navies(with big freaking concrete walls ) than it is like fighterplanes.

So yes, fighter jock mindset, but not fighter style tatics. Or at most, something closer to WWI 2 seat fighter plane tactics.

It wasn't as if Dobrescu or the astrogator on any other starship did his calculations by hand. The entire idea was ridiculous! That was what computers were for in the first place, and if a ship suffered such a massive computer failure as to take Astrogation off-line, figuring out where it was was going to be the least of its problems. She'd just love to see anyone try to manage a hyper generator, an inertial compensator, or the grav pinch of a fusion plant without computer support! But the Powers That Were weren't particularly interested in the opinions of one Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington, and so she sweated her way through the entire old-fashioned, labor-intensive, frustrating, stupid quill-pen-and-parchment business like the obedient little snotty she was.

Yes? Take note that it only says that anyone sane lets computers do it for them, it does not say that people can´t do them.

And she IS taught how to do it by hand. Which perfectly backs up what i recalled.

Sorry I missed that reference. Completely over my head. Not much into anime. I like it, just never had the chance to immerse myself. Nuku Nuku Cat Girl! Damn, she is hot!

It´s a ranking/power grading system that is used in several(probably many) anime(and games etc), starting from F,E or D, then progressively getting more powerful up to A(or AAA+ or similar extension if more detail or greater range is used), and that´s effectively what´s "normal", if something/someone is beyond normal or extreme in some way, that´s when it becomes S-class/rank/power etc..

For example, Nanoha from MGL Nanoha is S and can pretty much compete with a tactical nuke if she wants pure destruction. Hayate from same series is SS and can compete with strategic nukes.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... kInflation

kzt wrote:Not necessarily. What was the institutional memory of the IJN when it obliterated the Russian fleet?

Pretty much zero. They looked at the British and German fleets and picked what felt like a good idea at the time from them.
And ended up with one of the best officer corps of the time.

if the training and thought behind is good, then "real" experience doesn´t matter much.

Hey, waitta minute!
Elvis Santino **was** bred for genius!!
So was Pavel Young.
Their ancestors were so sure that breeding was all!

Thread Premise Refuted.

HTM, PHL

[snip - htm] prone to make asinine mistakes like
one Elvis Santino. Although, in fairness, Santino's
actions were a result of his unpreparedness and
his inability to cope with the prospect of facing
his peers after an inevitable ass-kicking.
It was the very state of his unpreparedness
that made him an idiot,
[snip - htm]

Tenshinai wrote:

Sorry I missed that reference. Completely over my head. Not much into anime. I like it, just never had the chance to immerse myself. Nuku Nuku Cat Girl! Damn, she is hot!

It´s a ranking/power grading system that is used in several(probably many) anime(and games etc), starting from F,E or D, then progressively getting more powerful up to A(or AAA+ or similar extension if more detail or greater range is used), and that´s effectively what´s "normal", if something/someone is beyond normal or extreme in some way, that´s when it becomes S-class/rank/power etc..

For example, Nanoha from MGL Nanoha is S and can pretty much compete with a tactical nuke if she wants pure destruction. Hayate from same series is SS and can compete with strategic nukes.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... kInflation

Yup. Reading the manga Area-D right now, and one prisoner is referred to as an "S-class altered".

BTW cthia, if you want hot anime babes, might I suggest a few?

Major Motoko Kusanagi - from anything with Ghost in the Shell in its title.

Deunan Knute *and* Hitomi- from Appleseed and Appleseed Ex Machina

Lt. Cdr. Vexille Serra - from the movie Vexille

Masane Amaha - from Witchblade (which is a Japanese anime based on the American comic of the same name from Top Cow - you know, the people doing the Tales of Honor comic)

Fuu - from Samurai Champloo (although... she's only 15, I think)

Faye Valentine - from Cowboy Bebop

Haruko Haruhara - from FLCL (also known as Fooly Cooly or Furi Kuri)

Edit: I can't believe I forgot one, considering I just watched both versions a couple weeks ago.

Seras Victoria - from Hellsing and Hellsing Ultimate

Might as well also include Sir Integra Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing

Hutch wrote:

Northstar wrote:I could see her, once the Sollie mess is dealt with, switching to her roles as Steadholder and Duchess and hopefully teaching at Saganami.... or, better, founding a Grayson Naval Academy... she could do that and be Steadholder Harrington seeing to the prospering of her Steading plus Blackbird, Skydomes etc etc. This would get Raul on Grayson as well. I'd like it if Katherine was able to inherit the White Haven Earldom rather than all of it going to Raul. Surely that could be worked out.

May HH be allowed to live out a peacefully happy and very long life. She's darn well earned it. A wonderful HEA for Honor. Yes.

I sort of doubt it, Northstar; re-read the section of Misison of Honor that ends:

"I'll miss them," she told him again, still with that dreadful softness, "but I won't forget. I'll never forget, and one day—one day, Hamish—we're going to find the people who did this, you and I. And when we do, the only thing I'll ask of God is that He let them live long enough to know who's killing them."

I rather think she means that....

So while I (like you) hope to see more of her in a less-combative role, she will still be there for the "Big ones" and come the climatic final battle (and you just know there's one out there), I expect we'll see Honor Harrington on the Command Deck making DAMN SURE they Know who is Killing Them!!

We shall see--eventually.

True, but later -in MOH or ART, I think in ART- she was talking to... her Andermanni duke friend whose name I cannot dredge up and suggested perhaps he might have a fleet to go after the MA so.... all is left in the air. -author leaving his options open

And anyway why would she have to die just because she wipes out Dear Albrecht & Co?

I would love to see her mastermind the plan to wipe them out and carry it out and then go home to Grayson and do cameos now and then in Abigail's stories or whomevers.

Will that happen? I don't know. Not my story. Male writers tend to want to do dramatic death scenes, especially to heroines. Especially to heroines they are perhaps tired of writing about. So... only RFC knows. I'll continue to hope for a HEA for her until such time as he actually does otherwise.... but... I think it would be more fan pleasing to fade her into a HEA like Cincinnatus home from the wars -historic precedent - and carry on with others without killing her off. YMMV And so may RFC's.

In case someone doesn't know, a HEA is Happily Ever After.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:They would still lack the institutional memory essential to the training of young officers because that requires experience MAlign doesn't have.

Not necessarily. What was the institutional memory of the IJN when it obliterated the Russian fleet?

You might be right on this. But before we conceed the field altogether, we might ask about the institutional memory of the Russian Navy. Probably not all that sharp. Russia has never been a naval power, you know.

Also you might look at the quality of the hardware inivolved in that fight... Japan's was comparatively new whereas the way I remember it, Russia's was borderline obsolete. That probably goes a long way to explaining the result of the battle.

Don

n7axw wrote:
You might be right on this. But before we conceed the field altogether, we might ask about the institutional memory of the Russian Navy. Probably not all that sharp. Russia has never been a naval power, you know.

That´s pretty much one of those "everybody knows" myths. It´s like saying that Germany has never been a naval power.

Has Russia ever focused on it´s navy as the primary part of its military? Not really(although there are some periods that could, maybe, qualify for that description).

However, they have been one of the top ten(-ish) naval powers for hundreds of years, sometimes probably up in the top FIVE naval powers.

So no, i don´t know, you know.

Any nation that takes the effort to design and serialproduce capital ships and often having dozens of medium or large ships, and maintaining that navy over centuries, dismissing that as not a naval power...

n7axw wrote:Also you might look at the quality of the hardware inivolved in that fight... Japan's was comparatively new whereas the way I remember it, Russia's was borderline obsolete. That probably goes a long way to explaining the result of the battle.

Don

That´s a poor excuse for downplaying what happened.

If you want excuses you could at least use the poor morale on the Russian fleet, as it had just spent months at sea travelling 18000 miles from the Baltic. They also (unsurprisingly) had maintenance issues after that voyage.

Japan had 4 BBs in the battle. Roughly matching up fairly well to the 4 Russian Borodino class BBs. At worst you can argue about the Russian ships having less deck armour.

Problem is that the Russians then had another 5 BB, older and smaller yes, but still playing with the same kind and numbers of heavy guns and similar armour levels as the newer ships.

And a triplet of the Admiral Ushakov "pocket BB"s with "merely" 25cm guns.

The Russians installed radio earlier, and technically, their gear was superior.
However the voyage around half the world had left that gear in less than great shape, especially since it was imported from Germany.

All 4 Japanese BBs were designed and built by UK.

Meanwhile, even though the Borodino´s were not the greatest of ships, they were so brand new that they cut sea-trials short to send them to the far east, and Tsushima.

Do recall that this is before Dreadnaught and Satsuma are built. As they were based on what was learned from Tsushima.

The major advantage Japan had was that it had a lot of ships, including a big bunch of cruisers.
But cruisers beating battleships isn´t supposed to be easy. And it isn´t.

Objectively, either side could easily have won the battle.

Oh, for fun i might add that a lot of the Japanese navy at the time had been built as part of Jeune Ecole thinking. It wasn´t until the war with China only a couple of decades before that it lost most of its support.
OTOH, it was previously how Japan built forces on the cheap.