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Naval genies in a bottle

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Naval genies in a bottle
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:15 pm

cthia
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I feel the need, the need for speed. -Top Gun

The Alpha lines were the most superior genetic lines produced by the Mesan Alignment, destined to serve as the ruling class once the Renaissance Factor had taken over control of humanity.

The Beta lines were supreme genetic lines produced by the Mesan Alignment, destined to serve the Renaissance Factor once it had taken over control of humanity.

The Gamma lines were high genetic lines produced by the Mesan Alignment, destined to serve the Renaissance Factor once it had taken over control of humanity.

Genetic slavery, sometimes euphomized as genetic indentured servitude, was a form of slavery common on certain human-settled worlds, but outlawed by most star nations. Its basis was the genetic engineering and trade of subservient human beings designed for specific purposes.

It has been simmering in my mind for quite some time, but could not quite place a taste bud on the tasty tidbit. It seems that Mesa may have missed an opportunity. Why is there not a S-line, bred for Naval Strategy and Tactics? Spoon fed Sun Tzu's Art of War in pre-school. Can they not conceive of the possible advantage of people bred to become superior officers? Imagine a Navy devoid of a single Elvis Santino. Effectively all of your officers are potential Salamanders. And all are well trained in Old Earth's Top Gun tactics as a teether. After all, it's apparently not being taught anywhere by any Navy.

Perhaps it wasn't really Dunecki's fault. The range was insanely short for modern warships, dropping towards one which could be measured in hundreds of kilometers and not thousands, and no sane naval officer would even have contemplated engaging at such close quarters. Nor had either Dunecki or Bachfisch planned on doing any such thing, for each had expected to begin and end the battle with a single broadside which would take his enemy completely by surprise. But whatever they'd planned, their ships were here now, and no one in any navy trained its officers for combat maneuvers in such close proximity to an enemy warship. And because of that, Anders Dunecki, for all of his experience, was completely unprepared for what War Maiden actually did.


It wasn't as if Dobrescu or the astrogator of any other starship did his calculations by hand. The entire idea was ridiculous! That was what computers were for in the first place, and if a ship suffered such a massive computer failure as to take Astrogation off-line, figuring out where it was was going to be the least of its problems. She'd just love to see anyone try to manage a hyper generator, an inertial compensator, or the grav pinch of a fusion plant without computer support! But the Powers That Were weren't particularly interested in the opinions of one Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington, and so she sweated her way through the entire old-fashioned, labor-intensive, frustrating, stupid quill-pen-and-parchment business like the obedient little snotty she was.

Mesan bred astrogator genies would be able to astrogate without computers, in a pinch.

This whole concept is similar to what Kirk faced in The Wrath of Khan. The possibility is very real, and the threat exists. Who knows if Mesa hasn't a strategic and tactical line bred.

In conjures up perceptions of a new type warfare. Attrition Warfare with an applied emphasis on intellectual superiority.

Attrition warfare is a military strategy in which a belligerent side attempts to win a war by wearing down its enemy to the point of collapse through continuous losses in personnel and materiel. The war will usually be won by the side with greater such resources.[1] The word attrition comes from the Latin root atterere to rub against, similar to the "grinding down" of the opponent's forces in attrition warfare.[2] -wiki


Sun Tzu argued against attrition warfare...
Military theorists and strategists like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided. In the sense that attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent through superior numbers, it represents the opposite of the usual principles of war, where one attempts to achieve decisive victories by using minimal necessary resources and in minimal amount of time, through maneuver, concentration of force, surprise, and the like.

On the other hand, a side which perceives itself to be at a marked disadvantage in maneuver warfare or unit tactics may deliberately seek out attrition warfare to neutralize its opponent's advantages. If the sides are nearly evenly matched, the outcome of a war of attrition is likely to be a Pyrrhic victory. -wiki

however, in the Honorverse, with genies being let out of the bottle, perhaps a new slant on this tactic may make it feasible. A sort of Mental Attrition Warfare. MAW.

If Mesa was going to let the genies out of the bottle, why not rub the bottle the right way?

Which brings me to a final point. With RFC announcing that there will be only two more mainline Honorverse novels featuring Honor as the main character, why can't Honor resume her teaching position? It seems she is just as valuable there. Then perhaps she can teach those close-in maneuvers in which she employed on at least two occasions and survived where survival wasn't expected.
But unlike whoever was in command over there, Honor could not afford a weapon-to-weapon battering match. Not against someone that big who had already demonstrated her capabilities so convincingly. And so she had no choice but to oppose overwhelming firepower with cunning.



Honor watched the other ship roll. Like War Maiden, the bigger ship was rotating her crippled broadside away from her opponent's fire. But she wasn't stopping there, and Honor let herself feel a tiny spark of hope as the raider continued to roll, and then the weapons of her undamaged broadside lashed out afresh and poured a hurricane of fire upon War Maiden. The belly of the Manticoran ship's impeller wedge absorbed that fire harmlessly, but that wasn't the point, and Honor knew it. The enemy was sequencing her fire carefully, so that something pounded the wedge continuously. If War Maiden rolled back for a broadside duel, that constant pounding was almost certain to catch her as she rolled, inflicting damage and destroying at least some of her remaining weapons before they ever got a chance to bear upon their foe. It was a smart, merciless tactic, one which eschewed finesse in favor of brutal practicality. But unlike whoever was in command over there, Honor could not afford a weapon-to-weapon battering match. Not against someone that big who had already demonstrated her capabilities so convincingly. And so she had no choice but to oppose overwhelming firepower with cunning.


S-ATC. Salamander Advanced Tactical Course.
The SCrusher. The Salamander Crusher.

My two cents anyway. With today's inflation, is it worth a plum nickel?

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:27 pm

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Transplanted from one-liner's thread...
Changer of Worlds
Perhaps it wasn't really Dunecki's fault. The range was insanely short for modern warships, dropping towards one which could be measured in hundreds of kilometers and not thousands, and no sane naval officer would even have contemplated engaging at such close quarters. Nor had either Dunecki or Bachfisch planned on doing any such thing, for each had expected to begin and end the battle with a single broadside which would take his enemy completely by surprise. But whatever they'd planned, their ships were here now, and no one in any navy trained its officers for combat maneuvers in such close proximity to an enemy warship. And because of that, Anders Dunecki, for all of his experience, was completely unprepared for what War Maiden actually did.

Ok, RFC, this I don't understand. I realize that this situation is unique in that it is rare, but it seems inevitable. Sometimes the only tactical maneuver available is to close with the enemy ship, as Honor did in her deathride.

In all of an officer's training, and all of the class instruction and simulations driven into students, I can't imagine that these type maneuvers wouldn't be pre-requisites. It's akin to studying chess to become a grand master but ignoring the 'end game.' These such in-close proximity maneuvers should be freshman year Tactics 101. Intuitively, they seem the same type maneuvers as Top Gun--The United States Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program. Has the edge been lost?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:50 pm

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Another transplant from one-liner's thread.
kzt wrote:
Energy range fights are exceedingly rare and usually result in the destruction of or severe damage to all the participants. Particularly true at close range. For example, Honor did not expect Fearless to survive engaging Saladin at energy range, her hope was that she could inflict severe enough damage on the BC that it was crippled or destroyed.

In the particular situation, both sides had convinced themselves that they knew what was going on and both were wrong. It's jumping out of the closet to say Boo! and finding a SWAT team in your house.

:o :lol:
Where'd you get that? The imagery is hillarious! The boo is on you!

Ok, still laughing, granted. But, it seems that that would not negate the need to teach officers those maneuvers, as a contingency, to at least increase chances of their command's survival. My father was a proponent of 'If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.'

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by Rakhmamort   » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:09 am

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Ouch. Is this a cross-over to Ender's universe? Breed genius military leaders and pit them against each other to find out which of them is the best and who would be leading the MAN in its mission to conquer known space? lol!
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by Eagleeye   » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:05 am

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Maybe Mesa tried that out once but the results were ... less than encouraging let's say, because you can't get some positives without getting some negatives, too?

And maybe, in this case, the negative in question would be a ... certain lack in loyalty to the goals of their creators?
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:25 am

cthia
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Rakhmamort wrote:Ouch. Is this a cross-over to Ender's universe? Breed genius military leaders and pit them against each other to find out which of them is the best and who would be leading the MAN in its mission to conquer known space? lol!

The genius military leaders have already been bred--the Detweilers. The strategy thought up for centuries, and their initial tactical strikes were most successful. Just a short jump to put more of the same-highly specialized-in ships.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by Rakhmamort   » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:59 am

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cthia wrote:
Rakhmamort wrote:Ouch. Is this a cross-over to Ender's universe? Breed genius military leaders and pit them against each other to find out which of them is the best and who would be leading the MAN in its mission to conquer known space? lol!

The genius military leaders have already been bred--the Detweilers. The strategy thought up for centuries, and their initial tactical strikes were most successful. Just a short jump to put more of the same-highly specialized-in ships.


I wouldn't call having an initial successful strike using new and unknown technology under one's belt as genius military-wise. Anybody with half a brain can do that. Military genius is consistently beating the enemy(or at least denying them a one sided victory) who has practically the same level of tech even when the balance of forces is in favor of the other side.
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:36 am

cthia
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Rakhmamort wrote:
cthia wrote:Ouch. Is this a cross-over to Ender's universe? Breed genius military leaders and pit them against each other to find out which of them is the best and who would be leading the MAN in its mission to conquer known space? lol!

The genius military leaders have already been bred--the Detweilers. The strategy thought up for centuries, and their initial tactical strikes were most successful. Just a short jump to put more of the same-highly specialized-in ships.

Rakhmamort wrote:
I wouldn't call having an initial successful strike using new and unknown technology under one's belt as genius military-wise. Anybody with half a brain can do that. Military genius is consistently beating the enemy(or at least denying them a one sided victory) who has practically the same level of tech even when the balance of forces is in favor of the other side.


I beg to differ. I think it took true genius to think it up. And so far in advance. The fact that the playing field wasn't level doesn't discount the genius. Can't discount Stormin' Norman's genius just because he had superior advanced air support technology. In which he used ruthlessly.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by The E   » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:18 am

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cthia wrote:I beg to differ. I think it took true genius to think it up. And so far in advance. The fact that the playing field wasn't level doesn't discount the genius. Can't discount Stormin' Norman's genius just because he had superior advanced air support technology. In which he used ruthlessly.


Given the timeframe involved, it had less to do with individual brilliance, and more to do with an astonishing degree of institutional continuity. The plans themselves aren't all that complicated, anyone can think up those schemes, it's the execution over multiple generations that's the really incredible thing here.

Basically, the Detweilers aren't bred military geniuses in my estimation. What they are is brilliant political geniuses, able to plan over timeframes far beyond a "normal" human being's planning horizon, and executing those plans without anyone noticing.
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Re: Naval genies let out of bottle
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:17 am

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A few points. First, there are "specialty lines." We've seen at least two of them so far: Albrecht Detweiller's bodyguard and one other (mentioning who it is would be a spoiler, sorry.) I'm guessing the agent who suicided on Torch might have been a third. None of the specialty lines to date seems to be a super-genius.

RFC has been at pains to show that, at the top levels, they don't have the ability to tailor personality characteristics and talents to order, at least with any degree of reliability. In all likelihood, they don't want them, either. Specialization is for the lower orders; rulers almost have to be generalists. The talents that a Mesan Alpha needs are pretty much the talents that any senior military officer needs.

In other words, the Alignment doesn't need dozens of super-admirals. Most Mesan Alphas ought to be able to handle the job.
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