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Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN

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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by Rakhmamort   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:10 am

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Annachie wrote:Equipping the yard with propulsion would probably take a lot away from the style of building they use. However, once the basic framework is done for the ship it would probably be possible to use a tug to move it every month or so.


the problem with tugs is that it's inertial stabilizer isn't going to cover the shipyard and shipyards are flimsy compared to warships. upgrading it's 'station keeping' drive into a relatively low but decently powered drive system would be better. it might even enable the yard to move even if it has a ship currently under construction inside.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by The E   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:15 am

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Rakhmamort wrote:I suppose they'd probably equip the new stand alone shipyards of theirs with some sort of propulsion so it can change it's position from time to time to make it harder to take them out.


Probably not. The problem is that the propulsion systems of the Honorverse do not scale far enough to allow massive stations to move; after all, we can expect a replacement for Hephaestus or Vulcan to have the mass of several SDs, and we already know that there is a sharp cliff in terms of compensator efficiency beyond 8.5 mt (which is why the Junction forts can't move faster than an old freighter).

In addition, such measures are neither particularly effective against traditional attacks (because the stations won't be able to stay hidden, and normal attackers have plenty of speed to get to them), nor are they effective against Oyster Bay-style strikes (because, again, you can't hide the presence of these things).

The best defensive option available right now is a station that incorporates bubble sidewalls or even a full wedge, as well as a fleet of ready tugs that can form a wedge wall between the station and an attacker.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by Rakhmamort   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:04 am

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The E wrote:
Rakhmamort wrote:I suppose they'd probably equip the new stand alone shipyards of theirs with some sort of propulsion so it can change it's position from time to time to make it harder to take them out.


Probably not. The problem is that the propulsion systems of the Honorverse do not scale far enough to allow massive stations to move; after all, we can expect a replacement for Hephaestus or Vulcan to have the mass of several SDs, and we already know that there is a sharp cliff in terms of compensator efficiency beyond 8.5 mt (which is why the Junction forts can't move faster than an old freighter).

In addition, such measures are neither particularly effective against traditional attacks (because the stations won't be able to stay hidden, and normal attackers have plenty of speed to get to them), nor are they effective against Oyster Bay-style strikes (because, again, you can't hide the presence of these things).

The best defensive option available right now is a station that incorporates bubble sidewalls or even a full wedge, as well as a fleet of ready tugs that can form a wedge wall between the station and an attacker.


i was talking about stand-alone shipyards, not huge space complexes. once you have detectors for the spider drive, you can make your shipyards move in a random manner to keep them from being easy targets for long range launches
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by n7axw   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:44 am

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I don't think there is text evidence for the yards moving. What we do have text evidence for is that new installations will be built with future expansion in mind and that they will be very heavily defended.

Actually, the most serious problem at the moment is MAlign's stealth capabilities. Solve that and the threat becomes manageable.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by packhunter   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:16 pm

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Rakhmamort wrote:Manticore, if I remember correctly, is planning to build something like the previous Hephaestus albeit this one designed to grow from the very start.

Grayson 'prefers' stand alone shipyards. Easier to set up/build but a bit less efficient. Considering the attack that took out their old shipbuilding capacities, I think Grayson would stick to the stand alone yards since it is going to be more difficult to take out a lot of scattered singletons compared to one big shipyard complex. I suppose they'd probably equip the new stand alone shipyards of theirs with some sort of propulsion so it can change it's position from time to time to make it harder to take them out.



It's not that they prefered dispersed ship yards. It's that at the time it was easier to build quickly even if it required them to through far more manpower at to work realativly but still less efficently then their Manticoran equivalents. Grayson prefers anything that maximises their manpower. They were just trapped in that they couldn't justify the cost of rebuilding their whole industrial complex to a automated Manticoran style yard when they had something that mostly worked. Oyster Bay changes that.

I'm also willing to bet that their old shipbuilding infrastructure is still there and in use. They probably sold it off to some civilian company. Probably one that was making minor things like intra sytem runabouts or mining ships or other miscillaneous civilian orientated space born infrastructure(i.e. replacement parts for the orbital farms). If this is so then it was also likely upgraded to modern civilian standards. I doubt it was expanded much though, but I could be wrong. As all new construction was going up in BlackBird.

Which means that coupled with their own repair ships they should have a small neculeous of spacers and equipment to rebuild. Plus we know from Honor Amoung Enemies that their technical training school was ground based (White Haven visited it well on planet if I recall corectly).

We do know that all the old pre alliance Defence forts were scraped. However there were defensce platforms of a modern stripe protecting Grayson, and thats all still there.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by Rakhmamort   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:54 pm

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n7axw wrote:I don't think there is text evidence for the yards moving. What we do have text evidence for is that new installations will be built with future expansion in mind and that they will be very heavily defended.

Actually, the most serious problem at the moment is MAlign's stealth capabilities. Solve that and the threat becomes manageable.

Don


Big structures that stay in fixed predictable orbits are susceptible to relativistic strikes. With the number of geniuses in MA, they can easily plot where such big targets will be at a certain point in time. Dispersed smaller targets would require a lot more relativistic weapons. Moving smaller targets, as we know would be a lot more difficult to hit.
In addition, once your sensors are developed, the shipyards can simply present their wedge towards the incoming weapons for additional protection.

Yes, I agree that there is no text that says you can put nodes in a shipyard to make it mobile, but if you can put nodes on a hull that can enclose a DN hull, you can put one on a building slip. Note the description of the early stand alone grayson slips, they're practically just scaffolding. Just build them scaffolding that can take even just 1 gravity of acceleration and put the necessary equipment to make it mobile.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by The E   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:09 pm

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Rakhmamort wrote:Yes, I agree that there is no text that says you can put nodes in a shipyard to make it mobile, but if you can put nodes on a hull that can enclose a DN hull, you can put one on a building slip. Note the description of the early stand alone grayson slips, they're practically just scaffolding. Just build them scaffolding that can take even just 1 gravity of acceleration and put the necessary equipment to make it mobile.


From the last time the topic of mobile shipyards came up:

runsforcelery wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:The hyperspace Deep Dock, was the notion of a ship or set of ships in a convoy, that put parts together, or grows it with nanotech, while in hyperspace taking the slow route between manufacturing facilities or mining points.

The idea isn't to ship parts to a Deep dock, it is to have the Deep dock pick up the parts or base materials, and build / grow a ship while completely safe in hyperspace. Totally secure manufacturing facilities that would blend in with other similar civilian ships in systems and purposely take the slow hyperspace route between systems and parts manufacturers or mining operations.

For special forces use, the honorverse version of the SBS. Special Boat Service - British version of SEALS, and naval counter part of the more popular SAS. Special Air Service. Whatever the Manticoran version of the BSC is. A Deep Dock let's one park oneora pair of Roland or Saganami C or even Nike in a freighter for special uses. Covert deployment or other purposes.

A Deepdock doesn't let you replace your yards it provides secure and covert construction capability away from any prying eyes without relying on a bolt hole. In systems hiding in plain sight, just another freighter. A slow moving slow hyperspaceing freighter picking up raw materials bound for some backwater place. Whether it uses the terminus to jump to Basilisk then take the long way back, or whether it picks up parts for some other place and flies in hyperspace circles arriving at the correct time later for another load. Just another freighter.


Skimper — I can see you are deeply wedded to this concept, but it isn't going to happen. You can't put the kinds of facilities you're talking about putting into a freighter on any sort of worthwhile operational scale. This is the equivalent of saying "I'll hide a steel works inside a supertanker that I can send on an innocent voyage across the Pacific, and when it arrives on the far side it will have produced fifty tons of high quality steel." Not exactly the most economical use of a ship that displaces 500,000 tons fully laden.

Even if this — or something like it — might conceivably be possible (and I'm not at all sure that it would be, using Honorverse technology) the scale of production would be like buying a 1-liter bottle of crude oil when what you needed was at least a metric tonne of the stuff (hint: that would be around 11,300 liters). It's just not going to be worth the investment, and it's certainly not going to be worth the expense. To be as gentle as possible, Rube Goldberg would be strongly attracted to this scheme and Henry Kaiser wouldn't touch it with a 10-meter pole. :)

It's certainly not anything Manticore or the Grand Alliance would be interested in, at any rate.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:42 pm

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From the last time the topic of mobile shipyards came up:


But not really relevant here as here, what´s suggested is merely adding limited mobility for an otherwise "static" base.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by kzt   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:49 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:But not really relevant here as here, what´s suggested is merely adding limited mobility for an otherwise "static" base.

It's a rather drastic change that requires a huge investment and massive structural changes. On the order of making a the Goodyear blimp into a submarine.
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Re: Rebuilding Blackbird for the GSN
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:11 pm

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kzt wrote:It's a rather drastic change that requires a huge investment and massive structural changes. On the order of making a the Goodyear blimp into a submarine.


No, nothing remotely that bad. And BTW, it´s much easier to make a sub into a blimp. :mrgreen:

You don´t need to push hundreds of g for a base to get it moving, either to change orbit or to avoid a long distance attack.

You need acceleration of any level, essentially 10g would be plenty. So all you need is the basics to make sure it doesn´t break apart, and either a lowgrade compensator or very basic gravplating.

More importantly, having the drive there is more important for the ability to put up a wedge for protection, than it is for moving it.
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