System Guard

No, BC(P)s cannot carry Cataphract pods, unless they get significant refits of their handling systems. There goes your "fast deployment."

Silesia already has a large number of BCs and other ships guarding them. Do you think the ships Admiral Sarnow has are not enough?

We already told you several times that DDMs and MDMs already incorporate the same extended range technology that went into developing the LERM.

Lord Skimper wrote:OK nobody likes the idea of using SD's anymore. How about making a system guard based on BC's. It can start with the older ones. And then progress up with the addition of the BC(P) which nobody else seems to have a use for. The o.d Silly ones captured with the Cataphracts and the redoubtable in mothballs plus any Homers, as they get replaced. This should bring a nice round number of about 12 per Silesian system. 3 being BC(P) and the rest about 3 redoubtable, 2-3 Homer, 2-3 reliant 1's, and 1-2 Solly captured. The BC(P) can used Cataphract pods. Pulling the Cataphract from all the SD's that are captured plus all the reloads should net about 200,000 pods of 10.

Several questions spring to mind immediately.

1. Why do you believe that there's a threat level in Silesia that mandates the deployment of entire BatCruRons to each and every system?
2. Why do you believe that it's a good idea to use captured Solarian ships for the job, given that these things are mostly useless in combat when compared to GA designs?
3. Why do you believe that the RMN has the personnel available to man these ships and retrain on solarian equipment?

These pods might have to be made but you don't need a slip to make a pod.

And if you can build missile pods, you probably can also build missiles, at which point I would ask why you're spending time and money to build inferior hardware.

Most of the slips in Silesia could be upgraded to support these smaller BC even if they are larger than Silesian BC slips. One could also begin asap refitting the slips to support the much larger Mk16 missile lines and the Nike BCL.

Why? Silesia is so far away from where the ships are actually needed that building up servicing capacity there makes exactly no sense.

BC should have crews less than a 1000 each. Less than 500 for the BC(P). Yet will give am immediate boost to each Silesian system and allow for the development of the system guard. Plus Silesian military crew used to operate BC's and with additional System Guard training should be able to be brought up to speed quickly.

And once more we come to a repeat of "Skimper hasn't read the books". Old BCs, whether they're Manty or SLN designs, require crews of several thousand people each. Reducing the crew numbers is possible to a degree (as we've seen in EoH), but it severely impacts combat readiness. Given that it's impossible to make these ships more manpower-efficient without significant yard time, the question of why the hell this is supposed to be a good idea comes up again.

Cataphracts will allow for fast deployment and training while allowing for reasonable defense against any raids and pirates. Plus the older standard BC missiles.

What is it with you and your love affair with the Cataphract? Just because these things are technically available doesn't mean that it's a good idea to use them. Even keeping them at readiness will eventually result in losses through attrition, at which point you will have a hodgepodge of weapons systems even worse than what you want to use as a starting state.

Adding a couple dozen Highlander 2 LAC to each system with a FF "Q" freighter for mobile deployment to round out the local forces and multiply the numbers.

Finally something sensible. Not the Highlander 2 part, that's bollocks for the simple reason that you're so far the only one who seems to believe in those things, but the LAC as support element part. A couple squadrons of Shrikes and Ferrets go a long way toward securign your average Silesian system.

The E wrote:

Cataphracts will allow for fast deployment and training while allowing for reasonable defense against any raids and pirates. Plus the older standard BC missiles.

What is it with you and your love affair with the Cataphract? Just because these things are technically available doesn't mean that it's a good idea to use them. Even keeping them at readiness will eventually result in losses through attrition, at which point you will have a hodgepodge of weapons systems even worse than what you want to use as a starting state.

Yeah, I'm baffled as well. They're longer than a normal missile (so they're almost certainly too long to fit in normal Mantie/Grayson pods), they've barely got more usable range than a Mark 14 ERM (or Mark Mk36 Lightweight-ERM), and they mount a pitiful warhead for their size.

In virtually all respects a Mark 14 cruiser weight ERM is a more effective missile; and that's obsolescent by Manticoran standards.

To be fair, a cataphract can have a ballistic phase to greatly extend range, which an ERM cannot.

True, but we know that even RMN missiles have difficulties with targeting at extreme ranges, I can't imagine Cataphracts being any better.

Why should the GA ever contemplate using Cataphracts when they already have Mk 16 DDM, Mk23 MDM as well as the upcoming 4 stage Mk 23, each having superior performance in terms of EW, range, warhead and sensors, as well being the weapons they designed themselves, and therefore have all the fabrication details?

Whitecold wrote:Why should the GA ever contemplate using Cataphracts when they already have Mk 16 DDM, Mk23 MDM as well as the upcoming 4 stage Mk 23, each having superior performance in terms of EW, range, warhead and sensors, as well being the weapons they designed themselves, and therefore have all the fabrication details?

Nobody knows why Skimper keeps trying to advocate such an asinine position.

Skimper is proposing this idea as a way to improve system economies. I understand that. But let's figure out what else is needed to set up a repair/building slip.

First you need to build the repair slip. That means the infrastructure to fabricate the needed physical support structure of the slip itself. Most systems will need to build this from scratch, as it is single purpose items. Nothing on planet is going to use these items.

Next is the industry necessary to build the nodes. Again, a single purpose industry, with no on-planet use.

I will grant that most planets will already have the industry to build fusion plants and electronics, but both will have to be revamped to build military grade equipment, which again has no on-planet use.

The wiring and plumbing will be pretty much standard, so that will help those industries.

Then, they would have to build a weapons industry from scratch.

So far, there have been billions of dollars spent to bring a single system up to the point of being able to do maintenance and repair of the ships that call at that planet. There might even be enough infrastructure now to build a ship. But it has cost more to bring the system up to that point than the cost of a ship. (Or three).

Unless you are planning on shipping everything in. Then it would be cheaper to build the ship or ships wherever you are building the parts. After all, if the parts are being built somewhere else, that system already has the infrastructure in place.

First off I don't know about the ERM Mk14 missile so I don't talk about it. Would it fit in a BC orSD tube?

Secondly yes there are RMN units in Silesia but those could be better used with the SD(P) and offensive units. The SG (System Guard) units would be better, used in protectorate. Having a Silesian System Guard in Silesia will help with the protectorate and help integrate the protectorate, rather than having occupation forces still there. New SEM and protectorates will both benefit through integration. But unless a full scale enlistment from Silesia takes place it will be a second class sector. The System Guard tells Silesia that they are SEM and in charge. But as the System guard starts expanding outside of Silesia into Talbot and the Verge and the rest of the SEM and the GA.

The SG will have to be added to the Andie considerations in Silesia and that would be a two way street. But it could act as a buffer to what might be considered a future problem. Having a North Korea - South Korea, Northern Ireland - Southern Ireland, Cypress...East - West Germany, Palestine Gaza - West bank, all best intention success stories. One doesn't want to add Silesia to this list. There are likely some who live on one side with relatives on the other. Perfect for creating problems, even outside of the corrupt political former environment. Yes the SEM brings freedom but it also says brings a form of split Confederacy.

Like breaking up the USA Canada brings the Queen, and Mexico the King of Spain, obviously not current USA but say 250 years ago. We take the northern most 23 states plus Hawaii and Alaska. They take the Southern most 25. You would be happy with that? You are just a protectorate so your second class citizen's. Can't vote yet. But when your states get their new governors set up well you'll have to be educated brought up to civilized level. You need to learn where to put the U's like Colour, and the like. But eventually you will be able to join the British Empire as Equals. Part of the Commonwealth.

A system Guard, in Silesia removes a hurdle to incorporation and helps move the hotheads out of the area and let's you move them about see how integration works in Talbot and how they too can integrate.

As for the Cataphract pods, I don't see how a Cataphract missile is going to be longer than a Mk16 or Mk23. It fits in standard Solly missile tubes. So it shouldn't be a problem. The pods will need be built to fit, but again that shouldn't be to difficult.

As an export option for "Acquired" verge systems the Cataphract pod with old school silly Captured BC and the otherwise unarmed "Q" ship pod layer FF(P)'s. Unarmed means it is a transport maintainence system. Like a cheap Mycroft using Highlander 3 Cataphract LAC with all the telemetry on the LAC, the unarmed "Q" ship will be an unarmoured no energy weapons, no active defenses. Sidewalls and military wedge / compensator. Sitting outside or near outside the limit and able to drop pods and LAC then stay in a Hyper capable state. One could also carry a larger double size Mk41 pod. For export / lease. Again having a powered 45 million klicks range Mk41 with big warhead and penaides it could very well be the export system pod.

No you wouldn't want one to go missing. But it's not as bad as a Mycroft system Mk25 system pod going missing....Mk41 is good for protectorates new and old and exports.

Lord Skimper wrote:First off I don't know about the ERM Mk14 missile so I don't talk about it. Would it fit in a BC orSD tube?

It's the missile used on the Saganami-B-class of heavy cruisers. (Like the Jessica Epps from War of Honor)

It the original Manticoran capacitor powered extended range / extended drive missile. The Mk36 LERM you're frequently referring to is the lightweight variant designed for destroyers and light cruisers. (The Mk36 seems to have come later as the pair of classes which use it were introduced 2 years later than the Sag-Bs)


Manticore apparently never build a BC or Capital grade ERM because those ships (at the time) were either
a) legacy units which couldn't carry the larger ERM missiles without refit, or
b) pod laying designs that could fire full up 3-drive MDMs

Then the 2-drive DDM Mk16 came along and effectively supplanted the Mk14 ERM for new designs.