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Honorverse Euphemisms

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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:05 pm

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If you condemn me. You condemn just about every one in the entire world as well as your own government. Your own government interchanges sexual slavery with prostitution.

Jimmy Lee, executive director of RestoreNYC, which provides shelter for trafficked women, has some theories on why locking a woman up for one’s own pleasure is more newsworthy than locking a woman up in order to pimp her out. “I think it is because of the stigma of being prostituted,” he says. “We too easily lessen our compassion for a “prostitute” even if it comes out that she was clearly not being prostituted by choice.’

http://ideas.time.com/2013/05/09/clevel ... right-now/

Riddle me this. What is the difference of Mesans sex slaves, who perform the sick acts against their will than a young run away on Earth who is approached by a smooth talking pimp promising them paradise only to find themselves forced into prostitution? And beaten when they try to escape. Often killed!

Write your lawmakers and tell them that you don't think these sick individuals should be charged for running illegal prostitution rings because sex slaves aren't prostitutes.

Here's one on the sex slaves next door. Which also refers to the sex slaves as prostitutes.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42233648/ns/u ... n_america/
Forced prostitution, also known as involuntary prostitution, is prostitution or sexual slavery that takes place as a result of coercion by a third party. The terms "forced prostitution" or "enforced prostitution" appear in international and humanitarian conventions but have been insufficiently understood and inconsistently applied. "Forced prostitution" refers to conditions of control over a person who is coerced by another to engage in sexual activity.[1] In its understanding of the distinction between sex work and forced prostitution,[2] the Open Society Foundations organization states: "sex work is done by consenting adults, where the act of selling or buying sexual services is not a violation of human rights."[3]

Forced prostitution is a crime against the person because of the violation of the victim's rights of movement through coercion and because of their commercial exploitation.

Not a single reference fails to equate sexual slavery with prostitution.

Social Stigma – The negative social stigma attached to prostitution is commonly exploited by traffickers in order to prevent victims from revealing the ways in which they are being abused and hurt. Survivors of street prostitution recount instances where family or the public treated them differently, limiting their ability to find help and access services in a non-judgmental environment.

http://www.polarisproject.org/human-tra ... ostitution
Do you still feel that the term sex slave is worse than prostitution?
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... each-year/
Just last week, the FBI rescued 48 teenagers, some as young as 13, who were working in the illegal sex trade. Suffice to say, they weren’t taking bubble baths at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel with a Richard Gere look-alike.
Rather, young girls – and sometimes boys – are held hostage by a pimp, who forces them to turn tricks or auctions them off to the highest bidder.
Right here in America.
Consider: Had that FBI sting last week come a few years later, many of those rescued girls would be over 18, and people would argue that as adults they “chose” to become prostitutes – and the girls would be treated as criminals.
In fact, they’re still simply sex slaves. And it is slavery, because they never see a dime of money from the pimps, and they have no freedom of movement.
Advocates talk ominously of the initial “seasoning period” when the victim is repeatedly raped, beaten, starved, locked in a closet and generally forced into submission. The pimp then gives her a new name and tells her she’s now a prostitute.

Case after case after case. In your own back yard and you are still in denial. What planet do you live on? Your own government calls sexual slavery prostitution. And I have provided you evidence that the young girls in question that had their innocence stolen from them were afraid of being labelled a prostitute, even though they knew they were forced into sexual servitude. Apparently I am not the only one who realizes that society still thinks that prostitution is a much worse stigma.

The stigma is more widespread in our minds than that. A wife gets raped yet she doesn't report it because she is afraid of what her husband and friends will think of her. Why? She didn't choose that?
A daughter is raped, embarrassed to tell her father. A girlfriend embarrassed, etc, etc. They are forced as well, yet what they feel is the stigma of being used like a prostitute.

If after all of this you still can't at least begin to rethink your view then that disconnect you are trying to find is the disconnect you have from life on Earth.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by petercharters   » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:20 pm

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I guess if you hear "sex slave" and automatically think "prostitute", you'd hear "field slave" and automatically think "farmer", "household slave" and think "maid", "tunnel slave" and think "miner" and so on. It's equating being an owned being, an object, used for a task with a human being who seeks employment for a task.

(Of course, the current sad crop of drug-controlled modern day sex-slaves pimped out as prostitutes by very bad people indeed messes with the edge of the definitions a bit, but that's an error in modern reporting and an erroneous use of the word "prostitute" instead of "slave". We don't want to admit that slaves still exist in our modern Western world, however illegally).
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by crewdude48   » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:52 pm

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cthia wrote:If you condemn me. You condemn just about every one in the entire world as well as your own government. Your own government interchanges sexual slavery with prostitution.

Jimmy Lee, executive director of RestoreNYC, which provides shelter for trafficked women, has some theories on why locking a woman up for one’s own pleasure is more newsworthy than locking a woman up in order to pimp her out. “I think it is because of the stigma of being prostituted,” he says. “We too easily lessen our compassion for a “prostitute” even if it comes out that she was clearly not being prostituted by choice.’

http://ideas.time.com/2013/05/09/clevel ... right-now/


"being prostituted" is not the same as being a prostitute.

Riddle me this. What is the difference of Mesans sex slaves, who perform the sick acts against their will than a young run away on Earth who is approached by a smooth talking pimp promising them paradise only to find themselves forced into prostitution? And beaten when they try to escape. Often killed!

Absolutely nothing. The young run away has become a sex slave.

Write your lawmakers and tell them that you don't think these sick individuals should be charged for running illegal prostitution rings because sex slaves aren't prostitutes.

They should be charged with many things, including false imprisonment, torture, assault, possibly kidnapping, and yes running a prostituion ring, because they are prostituting these women.

Here's one on the sex slaves next door. Which also refers to the sex slaves as prostitutes.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42233648/ns/u ... n_america/
Forced prostitution, also known as involuntary prostitution, is prostitution or sexual slavery that takes place as a result of coercion by a third party. The terms "forced prostitution" or "enforced prostitution" appear in international and humanitarian conventions but have been insufficiently understood and inconsistently applied. "Forced prostitution" refers to conditions of control over a person who is coerced by another to engage in sexual activity.[1] In its understanding of the distinction between sex work and forced prostitution,[2] the Open Society Foundations organization states: "sex work is done by consenting adults, where the act of selling or buying sexual services is not a violation of human rights."[3]

Forced prostitution is a crime against the person because of the violation of the victim's rights of movement through coercion and because of their commercial exploitation.

Not a single reference fails to equate sexual slavery with prostitution.
that one just defined sexual slavery as prostitution that one was forced into. It says it "is prostitution or sexual slavery that takes place as a result of coercion by a third party." If somebody put a gun to my head and told me to rob a store, it would a theft that takes place as a result of coercion by a third party, but I would not legally be a thief.

Social Stigma – The negative social stigma attached to prostitution is commonly exploited by traffickers in order to prevent victims from revealing the ways in which they are being abused and hurt. Survivors of street prostitution recount instances where family or the public treated them differently, limiting their ability to find help and access services in a non-judgmental environment.

http://www.polarisproject.org/human-tra ... ostitution
Do you still feel that the term sex slave is worse than prostitution?
yes, much.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... each-year/
Just last week, the FBI rescued 48 teenagers, some as young as 13, who were working in the illegal sex trade. Suffice to say, they weren’t taking bubble baths at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel with a Richard Gere look-alike.
Rather, young girls – and sometimes boys – are held hostage by a pimp, who forces them to turn tricks or auctions them off to the highest bidder.
Right here in America.
Consider: Had that FBI sting last week come a few years later, many of those rescued girls would be over 18, and people would argue that as adults they “chose” to become prostitutes – and the girls would be treated as criminals.
In fact, they’re still simply sex slaves. And it is slavery, because they never see a dime of money from the pimps, and they have no freedom of movement.
Advocates talk ominously of the initial “seasoning period” when the victim is repeatedly raped, beaten, starved, locked in a closet and generally forced into submission. The pimp then gives her a new name and tells her she’s now a prostitute.

just because a pimp says it to make his new girl do what he wants, does not make it true. She is a slave not a prostitute. And it is the government that is creating a market for sex slaves.
Case after case after case. In your own back yard and you are still in denial. What planet do you live on? Your own government calls sexual slavery prostitution. And I have provided you evidence that the young girls in question that had their innocence stolen from them were afraid of being labelled a prostitute, even though they knew they were forced into sexual servitude. Apparently I am not the only one who realizes that society still thinks that prostitution is a much worse stigma.

A worse stigma? Maybe. I would feel less sorry for somebody who told me he or she had worked as a prostitute than somebody who said they were held as a sex slave.

The stigma is more widespread in our minds than that. A wife gets raped yet she doesn't report it because she is afraid of what her husband and friends will think of her. Why? She didn't choose that?
A daughter is raped, embarrassed to tell her father. A girlfriend embarrassed, etc, etc. They are forced as well, yet what they feel is the stigma of being used like a prostitute.

No, they feel the stigma of being raped. We have a sick culture where women are blamed for getting raped. It has nothing to do with prostitution.

If after all of this you still can't at least begin to rethink your view then that disconnect you are trying to find is the disconnect you have from life on Earth.


Edit: removed personal attack. Sorry, I think I got into this argument a bit to deep.
I still think you are wrong, and the two terms being associated does not automatically make one a euphemism for the other.
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:18 am

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Hey guys... the last couple threads that strayed into sexual topics as part of a broader conversation have devolved pretty dramatically and it's getting a little weird... and I think we're supposed to be keeping this place family friendly, anyway.

...


Just where the heck did the name "Biological Survey Corps" come from, anyway????
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:43 am

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Governments love euphemisms. Bob Schieffer, CBS News' chief Washington correspondent, points out that when inflation was rising in the 1970s, President Jimmy Carter appointed Cornell economist Alfred Kahn to be his inflation czar. Kahn immediately warned that a "serious depression" might be on the horizon.

Of course, the White House didn't like the use of the word "depression," so Kahn said, "OK, I'll just call it a banana."

Schieffer writes:

"That threw the banana growers into a tizzy, so - and I'm not making this up - Kahn switched to calling the downturn a kumquat!"

Euphemisms can be used to obscure much darker truths. When the space shuttle Challenger exploded 73 seconds into its flight, a NASA technician described it as a "major malfunction." The term "ethnic cleansing" was frequently used to describe the Bosnian genocide of the 1990s.

More recently, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently upset Japan, a key U.S. ally, by demanding that all official documents refer to women drafted as prostitutes for the Japanese military during World War II as "enforced sex slaves" rather than by the euphemism "comfort women," the term preferred by the Japanese government.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:12 am

cthia
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TheMonster wrote:<snip>

But cthia's contention is that "much worse" is an entirely subjective criterion. That we disagree with the hierarchy of "worse" only proves that contention true.

Somehow I missed this. Must have been fuming.

Thanks Monster. If we could have agreed on this from the beginning this thread would not have unravelled so.
Social Stigma – The negative social stigma attached to prostitution is commonly exploited by traffickers in order to prevent victims from revealing the ways in which they are being abused and hurt. Survivors of street prostitution recount instances where family or the public treated them differently, limiting their ability to find help and access services in a non-judgmental environment.


If the poor victims kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery, are themselves more concerned with, and fear more, the possibilty of being labelled a prostitute then who are we to challenge them, unless we ourselves have run in their shoes and slept in their slips.

Personally, I don't think we are qualified. Unless perhaps we have also been...imprisoned and used as sex slaves ourselves, violently raped repeatedly and even forced to sexually serve others.

Obviously, I can't speak for any of you, but I know I'm not qualified to dispute how they feel.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:56 am

cthia
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Let's see if we all can't lift this heavy burden back onto the track. Altogether now, onnacounta three. 1-2-3
misinformation

The last I think I heard it used was regarding Herlander Simóes, where the Alliance considered whether Mesa used him as misinformation.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:27 pm

cthia
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crewdude48 wrote:
Edit: removed personal attack. Sorry, I think I got into this argument a bit to deep.
I still think you are wrong, and the two terms being associated does not automatically make one a euphemism for the other.

Crewdude, I appreciate your removal of the personal attack. I also appreciate your apology. However, I must add that as far as I am concerned the apology was not necessary as I understand that debates as this can get very personal and heated. The trick is knowing when to pull back from the brink. It is difficult for us mere humans who sometimes are driven by our hearts instead of our brains (yours truly). I also realize that your apology was out of consideration for your own sense of decency.

On that front I am just as guilty and I owe you and everyone reading the thread an apology as well, for not knowing when to withdraw from the steep precipice.

I am sorry as well.

We have to learn to respect each of us our opinions. And we must learn that from such a small window into the life of a poster, as threads represent, are much too small a window to form profound opinions. I learned that from interacting with Monster who I am sure I owe an apology as well. We get too caught up, but it is because we as humans stand for something.

I understand that your opinions haven't changed, and I accept that. My opinions stand as well, however I must add that I share the general consensus that there is a huge difference between sex slaves and prostitutes. Perhaps I didn't make that clear. If that is indeed the case, another apology is in order. Consider it given.

I was only being honest within my own limitations that sex slave reflexively makes me think prostitute. The extraneous think tank is completely outside of what I posit, or ultimately approve. Perhaps it's a matter for a professional to know what's going on in my brain.

I think that was too small a window to really know a person.

If I have offended anyone's sensibilities I apologize.

To MsBekky, a special apology and a deep bow.

If only we can know when to insert the control rod in such nuclear discussions.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by saber964   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:27 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:
cthia" quote="crewdude48 wrote:OK. Just so we can go farther in this discussion, what exactly is your definition of euphemism? I flat out do not see how "steward" can be a euphemism. It is a job title and description.

First, you must promise not to tell Honor!

Because Honor herself said something regarding that Mac is much more than just a cook.

Again, it's a very subjective concept.


I would say that since Mac's job is more than just a cook, that Steward could be construed as a euphemism for Servant, which implies a lower-class person, who may or may not have volunteered for that job.

More or less, a servant is exactly what Mac is, but because he's called a Steward, it has a more acceptable/respectable connotation. Sure, we all know that Mac is more of a friend than even the word "steward" can account for, but in the end, a servant is what he is.

Edit: In many ways, Honor's and Mac's relationship is exactly that of Frodo and Sam, and even they acknowledge their "master" and "servant" relationship. I like to think that if J.R.R. Tolkien had been writing LotR today, he would have sniffed at all the PC folderol and still said that Sam was Frodo's servant. Of course, he probably would have been castigated for it, and maybe the editors at Unwin would have insisted he change it to "steward".

Personally, I have little use for political correctness, as IMO, it means nothing in the long run. What is politically correct for one person may be insulting to another. Sure, there are some things that you don't say in polite company - or even in impolite company, occasionally - but for the most part, people are a product of their times, and trying to change them, or the way they say things, is futile.

For example, I despise how people want to change certain parts of Huck Finn, simply because certain words are unfashionable now. Same goes for those who want to change LotR because the word "faggot" is used in it. Sorry, but in that context, it's referring to a bundle of wood for a fire. Then there's the Brit food that goes by the same name, or the shortened version used in England to refer to a cigarette.

That's why I tend to just roll my eyes when people get all in a huff about it. Oh, wait... is "huff" or "huffing" a politically incorrect word?[/quote]

In Regards to James MacGuinness being a steward it is or was his job in the RMN. IIRC IN OBS he was a Stewards Mate First and a Chief Stewards Mate in HotQ. Also Chris Billingsey is a Master Chief Stewards Mate.
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Re: Honorverse Euphemisms
Post by John Prigent   » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:47 am

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Actually Samwise Gamgee wasn't Frodo's servant, he was Frodo's gardener and volunteered to go along as a companion just like Pippin.
Cheers
John
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