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SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.

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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:28 pm

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kzt wrote:
KNick wrote:In this case, people coming in from the outside would probably be turned in within hours of their arrival. We, as readers, tend to forget that in the Honorverse there are news sources other than the SLN media. Verge planets are far more likely to be getting their news from merchant crews, who have a fairly high opinion of the SKM, which will hopefully transfer over to the SEM. Manticore has been getting "good press" from this source for years, if not decades.

Well, sure. But how many international flight crews have you talked to this month? There are a lot more airplanes landing and taking off in the US than merchant ships in the verge.
None. On the other hand I'm in a internet connected world and also have access to more 24 news networks than I'd ever need.

I'm not info starved.


But if I was living in a pre-radio small seaport town and pretty much the only outsider I see are the crews of tramp sailing ships that stop by from time to time, you can bet everyone would be extremely interested in any news and information they might have. It'd likely be the talk of the town for many days later.

I'd think the situation on a lot over verge worlds is closer to the later situation that it is to today's saturated news environment and instant global communications.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by kzt   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:49 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I'd think the situation on a lot over verge worlds is closer to the later situation that it is to today's saturated news environment and instant global communications.

Most Verge worlds have a population of hundreds of millions to many billions.

They are not a single small town, they are half billion square KM planets with thousands of towns.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:43 pm

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The US tried this is Iraq and Afghanistan. The result has been our two, longest wars. One can make a cogent argument that President Obama squandered ga hard fought victory in Iraq, but the cost in blood and treasure was not worth it and the diversion of forces made it impossible to confront North Korea and Iran before they went nuclear. While supporting theArab Spring to overthrow Mubarak, Gadaffy and Assad was insane, the tactic of letting the countries go to Hell rather than attempting to occupy them to impose order avoided US casualties.

For the RMN, simply evicting or destroying OFS forces then abandoning the liberated planets to either establish a stable government or not is a better strategy.


KNick wrote:
Randomiser wrote:Well, KNick, remember what happened on Torch when it was liberated. I'm not sure that the SEM will feel obliged to protect people who have been oppressing their fellow planetary residents if it compromises their own interests. Nor will they think it right to leave planets under the OFS' thumb, and supplying funds to the trans-stellars or the SL, just because they can't fully garrison them if they force the SL out, neither from the pov of their own war aims, nor from that of the welfare of the vast majority of the populations of those planets.


It seems to me that preventing exactly that sort of reaction is in the best interests of the Empire. By staying until there is a legally emplaced government and turning anyone who has surrendered over to that government for trial there is a definite showing that the SEM believes firmly in the rule of law. It does not matter if all of them are found guilty and hung. That is not the SEM's business. What is their business is having a stable, legal government that they can work with. It will be up to each planet to form it's own government, establish it's own courts and control it's own people. Then it will be up to the SEM to figure out whether to work or not work with that government.
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Successful occupations
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:47 pm

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Two examples come to mind of successful occupations to establish democracy: Germany and Japan.

Reasons for success?

Both were occupied after a war that killed a big chunk of the male population.

Both had potential enemies that they feared far more than US. Germany preferred US over USSR and Japan preferred US over China and Korea.

Both went through a few years of violent resistance.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by wastedfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:50 pm

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Fly, do not be absurd. We have had more troops in Germany for the last 70 years than we ever did in Iraq or Afganistan. Had nearly half that many troops in Korea for the last 60 years as well. yea yea, currently we have drawn down the total numbers, but that has only been in the last few. Historically the averages are close to what I claim, NIT if you wish, I won't mind.

Don't be absurd.

PS> You have lost the post whore crown to kzt :D
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:41 am

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wastedfly wrote:Fly, do not be absurd. We have had more troops in Germany for the last 70 years than we ever did in Iraq or Afganistan. Had nearly half that many troops in Korea for the last 60 years as well. yea yea, currently we have drawn down the total numbers, but that has only been in the last few. Historically the averages are close to what I claim, NIT if you wish, I won't mind.

Don't be absurd.

PS> You have lost the post whore crown to kzt :D



I don't think that I was being absurd or suggesting that we did not maintain a large garrison in Germany and South Korea. I was simply pointing out that there were unusual factors other than US troop presence that discouraged insurgencies from escalating.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:48 am

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wastedfly wrote:Fly, do not be absurd. We have had more troops in Germany for the last 70 years than we ever did in Iraq or Afganistan. Had nearly half that many troops in Korea for the last 60 years as well. yea yea, currently we have drawn down the total numbers, but that has only been in the last few. Historically the averages are close to what I claim, NIT if you wish, I won't mind.

Don't be absurd.

PS> You have lost the post whore crown to kzt :D



Exactly what was I NITing about? This is your first post this thread.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by Dafmeister   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:50 am

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I'd think the situation on a lot over verge worlds is closer to the later situation that it is to today's saturated news environment and instant global communications.

Most Verge worlds have a population of hundreds of millions to many billions.

They are not a single small town, they are half billion square KM planets with thousands of towns.


The analogy still holds regardless of the numbers. There is no means of interstellar communication other than by ship. It doesn't matter if a planet has a population of five thousand or five billion, without ships coming and going from other systems then that planet will be starved of information about the wider galaxy.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:56 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I'd think the situation on a lot over verge worlds is closer to the later situation that it is to today's saturated news environment and instant global communications.

Most Verge worlds have a population of hundreds of millions to many billions.

They are not a single small town, they are half billion square KM planets with thousands of towns.
In terms of population you're correct. (Although I guess someone could make an argument that compared the ratio of people on a core world vs a verge world, might be similar to the ratio between the number of people in a major 1820 city and a minor 1820 sailing town)

But in terms of outside communications they are about that isolated. Yes, they've probably got some level of planetary communications net, but all their outside mail, news, broadcasts, etc gets brought in on the few ships that stop by. For a hardscrabble verge world those are mostly small tramp freighters.

Now a more prosperous world, already under Transteller control, likely gets more traffic and a correspondingly greater frequency of (delayed) SL broadcasts.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by Dafmeister   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:31 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:In terms of population you're correct. (Although I guess someone could make an argument that compared the ratio of people on a core world vs a verge world, might be similar to the ratio between the number of people in a major 1820 city and a minor 1820 sailing town)

But in terms of outside communications they are about that isolated. Yes, they've probably got some level of planetary communications net, but all their outside mail, news, broadcasts, etc gets brought in on the few ships that stop by. For a hardscrabble verge world those are mostly small tramp freighters.

Now a more prosperous world, already under Transteller control, likely gets more traffic and a correspondingly greater frequency of (delayed) SL broadcasts.


Appropriately filtered through the Transstellar's local PR office, of course.
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