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SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.

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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:57 am

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That was well said by RFC.

Adm Henke's musings suggested that the RMN might have an OBLIGATION to provide security if a stable government is not in place and can not be established. I am thinking of General Powell's "potery barn" rule of "you break it, you buy it.". (if I had been POTUS after 9-11 Afghanistan and Pakistan would have suffered such massive infrastructure damage (irrigation, transportation including ports) that famine would be inevitable. Spreading democracy at the point of a bayonet was an experiment that failed. The idea of evicting the OFS then withdrawing to leave systems to their own devices even if they become Libya is callus but pragmatic.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by pokermind   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:57 am

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The thing with the Verge is to save the SEM's good name from a callous MA dirty trick. The attacks on the main SL base in the area is to get defense in depth, and remove a potential base for further hostile acts. The dash to Mesa occurs when the 'true' enemy is unmasked. Mike is using good strategic and tactical operations to protect her part of the SEM IE. The Talbot Quadrant.

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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by Garth 2   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:20 am

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Not really going to work on any world that the SOF has had a hand as the general population wouldn't support their activities and probably turn the general population against any troops left behind.

Also the rationale for the troops stay loyal to the SL would also disappear once the warships pull out. After all they're mercenaries', who's loyalty would go to the highest bidder rather than being citizens fighting to protect what's theirs.

On world, which a pro-SL population exist this may work but do any of them exist?

Also don't forget the SEM has a really good reputation for how it deals with other populations, to the point the 'down and outs' on Earth know about it and the planets in the new quadrant had some awareness e.g. lynx.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:54 am

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Garth 2 wrote:Not really going to work on any world that the SOF has had a hand as the general population wouldn't support their activities and probably turn the general population against any troops left behind.

Also the rationale for the troops stay loyal to the SL would also disappear once the warships pull out. After all they're mercenaries', who's loyalty would go to the highest bidder rather than being citizens fighting to protect what's theirs.

On world, which a pro-SL population exist this may work but do any of them exist?

Also don't forget the SEM has a really good reputation for how it deals with other populations, to the point the 'down and outs' on Earth know about it and the planets in the new quadrant had some awareness e.g. lynx.



I was thinking covert SLN or OFS agents, not regular troops.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by KNick   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:16 pm

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Personally, I think one of the SEM's biggest manpower problems is going to be finding enough prison guards on any given liberated planet. On many of the planets, once the SLN/OFS is removed, the lynch mobs will be out in force in inverse proportion to the brutality of the ruling regime. The better run (closer to a true equality of laws), the less likely there will be such mobs. This would be the model Meyers followed. These places will not need much more than an embassy with a minimal (ie. normal) guard force.

On planets run on the Yucel model, the hunters will be out in force, screaming for blood. Nor will they be looking only for SL/OFS/Transstellar CEO blood. They will be hunting anybody from their home planet who actively abetted the regime. In such places, after a few hours, many of the people being hunted are going to be looking for a place to surrender that will not automatically result in their death. Then Michelle will need guards to keep people off of them. These places Michelle will need to leave somebody long enough for a government to be established and begin to run things well enough to establish courts and vet enough people to be prison guards.

In this case, people coming in from the outside would probably be turned in within hours of their arrival. We, as readers, tend to forget that in the Honorverse there are news sources other than the SLN media. Verge planets are far more likely to be getting their news from merchant crews, who have a fairly high opinion of the SKM, which will hopefully transfer over to the SEM. Manticore has been getting "good press" from this source for years, if not decades.

There will of course be variation between the two extremes, each requiring it's own solution and it's own CO for the SEM.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by kzt   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:57 pm

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KNick wrote:In this case, people coming in from the outside would probably be turned in within hours of their arrival. We, as readers, tend to forget that in the Honorverse there are news sources other than the SLN media. Verge planets are far more likely to be getting their news from merchant crews, who have a fairly high opinion of the SKM, which will hopefully transfer over to the SEM. Manticore has been getting "good press" from this source for years, if not decades.

Well, sure. But how many international flight crews have you talked to this month? There are a lot more airplanes landing and taking off in the US than merchant ships in the verge.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by munroburton   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:02 pm

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I think there are parallels between OFS and StateSec. The comparison only goes so far - for example, OFS doesn't have its own Navy.

Like StateSec, OFS relies on the existence of a Navy sufficiently powerful to control its territory. That Navy has proven itself impotent and the situation for them is even worse than it was for StateSec when Buttercup launched.

The training and tactics used are those of the top dog against an underdog. It won't be easy to use those same forces in reversed situations - bear in mind we've heard instances of OFS units being wiped out by Marines, which don't speak well of inter-service cooperation.

And however large their pool of manpower is, it's spread absurdly thin against the total population of the Verge. What can an intervention battalion do to a planet of five hundred million people who hate them down to the souls without fleet support? How does the League guarantee the loyalty of what are essentially mercenary units with communication loops that are months in length?
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by KNick   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:05 pm

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kzt wrote:Well, sure. But how many international flight crews have you talked to this month? There are a lot more airplanes landing and taking off in the US than merchant ships in the verge.


But, by the same token, flight crews are not running around looking for cargo either. While they might be hitting the bars, it is almost a sure thing that freighter crews will be looking for entertainment. Whether it is only a sightseeing tour or a night on the town, they will be interacting with people from the planet. There are also going to be pursers and cargo masters talking to the local population. Even if it is only complaints to the cargo handling crew about how much better they were treated somewhere else, information will still be passed along. It might have taken decades for a picture to develop, but it will still develop.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by Randomiser   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:11 pm

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Well, KNick, remember what happened on Torch when it was liberated. I'm not sure that the SEM will feel obliged to protect people who have been oppressing their fellow planetary residents if it compromises their own interests. Nor will they think it right to leave planets under the OFS' thumb, and supplying funds to the trans-stellars or the SL, just because they can't fully garrison them if they force the SL out, neither from the pov of their own war aims, nor from that of the welfare of the vast majority of the populations of those planets.
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Re: SLNwinning strategy, Insurgency.
Post by KNick   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:09 pm

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Randomiser wrote:Well, KNick, remember what happened on Torch when it was liberated. I'm not sure that the SEM will feel obliged to protect people who have been oppressing their fellow planetary residents if it compromises their own interests. Nor will they think it right to leave planets under the OFS' thumb, and supplying funds to the trans-stellars or the SL, just because they can't fully garrison them if they force the SL out, neither from the pov of their own war aims, nor from that of the welfare of the vast majority of the populations of those planets.


It seems to me that preventing exactly that sort of reaction is in the best interests of the Empire. By staying until there is a legally emplaced government and turning anyone who has surrendered over to that government for trial there is a definite showing that the SEM believes firmly in the rule of law. It does not matter if all of them are found guilty and hung. That is not the SEM's business. What is their business is having a stable, legal government that they can work with. It will be up to each planet to form it's own government, establish it's own courts and control it's own people. Then it will be up to the SEM to figure out whether to work or not work with that government.
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