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Revisiting a Gryphon refit.

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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by drothgery   » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:44 pm

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kzt wrote:I'll bite: Why? You need to add far less power to a fusion missile to get reactor startup than you need power up a multi-stage plasma capacitor missile.
Don't ask me. It's Word of God (with a fair amount textex to support it; BuShips believed it was much faster to design and build a pod full of capacitor MDMs and adapt the first-flight Andermani SD(P)s to use them than to do so for Mark 23s).
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by Duckk   » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:46 pm

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Is your comment for real?

It continues to baffle me that after all this time, people still think I don't know anything at all about the Honorverse. I've long lost count of the number of times I say something, people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, only for David to come in and make the same points I did. Or that on multiple occasions David has said I know the Honorverse and how he thinks better than just about anyone.

A Gryphon is still an waller built to the old paradigm of combat. The RMN tried refitting them to fire MDMs, but abandoned the project because it was a massive waste of time and resources. David has already shot down using the SLN ships, so there is absolutely no reason to take the old, useless SDs out of mothballs yet again.

wastedfly wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is this comment for real?

They will be pulling out all of the Haven/Andy SDM SD's as well and converting to MK-16G. As the refitting is miniscule. Fitting a smaller object into a larger space is hardly a major refit.

There are thousands of worlds that need naval vessels. They have none. Unless of course you figure that the Malign has no naval forces of equivalence or near equivalence. In which case, the upcoming books(?) will be beyond boring and as poorly written as the last few have been and hardly worth waiting for.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:52 pm

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Duckk wrote:A Gryphon is still an waller built to the old paradigm of combat. The RMN tried refitting them to fire MDMs, but abandoned the project because it was a massive waste of time and resources. David has already shot down using the SLN ships, so there is absolutely no reason to take the old, useless SDs out of mothballs yet again.


Uh, and why was that? Because MK-23's forced the RMN to put new tubes for the much BIGGER missiles along with the much BIGGER handling equipment through the armor. Effectively forcing them to GUT the SD. = lots of $$$ and resources.

MK-16 mod doesn't even touch the armor via the need for new tubes, nor handing equipment. Well slight mod to the handling equipment as the missile cradles, will have a smaller diameter. Oh the horrors of that. A high school kid in a machine shop can cut out new templates to bolt onto the old handling equipment for the smaller missiles. Heck, the energy power requirement is lower for fusion power birds as well compared to fusion capacitor birds. At least they only have to start the fusion plant, instead of provide the entire energy budget for its flight.

You effectively are arguing that the ship totals they have right now are more than enough to win the next phase of the war via inside knowledge, or that the SLN disintegrates and there is a giant lull in the fighting giving the RMN/RHN few needs for additional ships via your inside knowledge. If on the other hand the other side had a credible navy being built somewhere, like Mannerheim, etc with thousands of ships, then they will need every hull they can gather because there are thousands of worlds that if nothing else need to be kept neutral leaning to your side. This requires thousands of ships. Just where are they going to get them? They do not magically appear. Unless there is a giant break in the action upcoming. Many years break. Manticore/Grayson just got flattened. They will be nothing for many many years.

Why are you bringing up SLN wallers? Strawman much? They do not have the drawings. They do not have the mechanical spares. They do not have the paperwork forms for requisition etc in storage. SLN garbage effectively would have to have its entire C&C, CM, Missile storage scrapped along with its ECM systems along with its RD's etc etc etc. Heck, for all we know they do not even operate on the same voltage requiring every single electrical system inside the ship to be scrapped!

The RMN has everything in storage for the Gryphons. It is what you do when you MOTHBALL a big piece of equipment like a ship. You mothball the ship, its systems, its sub systems, its support equipment for all of the systems and their maintenance, its paper trail(logistics pipeline), and all of its spares into warehouses. For this reason F-86 Super Sabres are still flying today even though they have long since been mothballed without a manufacture for parts in over 40 years! A truer age would be 50 or 60! When they were mothballed ALL of this "old useless junk" was kept.

Perfect worlds only exist for armchair admirals and fiction writers. Real world has imperfect solutions.

Effectively an imperfetc solution: a Gryphon MK-16G would be a BCL without Keyhole but would require much more manpower to operate. It would also have more throw weight offensively and slightly more numerous counter missiles than a BCL as well. Ain't perfect. Better than sucking vacuum though on all those deployments that require BC's. Last I checked they have very few DDM or LERM BC's. Reliants, yes even Flight III/IV with LERM will get munched by cataphract equipped ships if they do not have pods handy when someone on the other side gets an IQ higher than their shoe size and starts putting a small ballistic phase into their 2nd stage when said Reliants do not have pods handy. Since Manticore, Grayson, and Haven have all forgotten how to build a power cord. At least the Andies have figured out how or appear to have reinvented it in WoH.

Your logic starting point is clearly shown in your last sentence. Just because something is "old" it is "useless". Lots of old "useless" equipment are used in war. Because it is what you have. No, you do not put them on the front lines or into critical battles where you need overwhelming point superiority. But side shows that eat up more manpower and equipment than the main show? Hell yes you do.

EDIT: Oh yea, a Gryphons ECM suite used in the 1st Havenite war will still be better than anything the other side has, if not, at least it has lots of armor, unlike Reliants.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by KNick   » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:24 pm

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The difference between a reactor powered missile's launcher and a capacitor powered missile's launcher is where the power cord is plugged in. The reactor powered missiles have there reactor lit off in the launcher, requiring that the "power cord" be there. So there is a delay of a few seconds while the reactor warms up. The capacitor powered bird is plugged in while it is in the magazine. It is already powered up when it hits the launcher, so it fires without a delay.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:27 pm

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A 3 stage LERM would have a powered range of 45 million Km. A non LERM 3 stage would give a 28.5-30 million Km range. Using LERM tech a Mk41 should have 2/3rd LERM sized drives. Given that the LERM is 1/3 the size of the Mk16 a Mk41 3 stage with LERM / ERM tech should be about the size of a Mk16 missile and with a 30 million Km range. Plus twin ballistic phases.

No need for new power requirements, as the powers who be, point out do not work. When one can just make stuff up, consistency is the only option for the rest of us.

Refitting and automating the missile storage, updating the CM and PD. Enlarging the crew quarters, losing some life support, adjusting bottles and compensators, remember everything inside the Gryphon not needing refit, is exactly the same as the on a Modern SD(P). It's not like they re-invented the wheel when they built the new ships.

Strange no comment on missile load per ship. 800-1200 per ship or is it 276?

A single aft hit and your Invictus is a big target. A single aft hit and a Gryphon is only a 249 missile load wave. Big difference.

Capacitor not Mk23 or Mk16 due to cost. The missiles themselves cost so much more. Why? who knows the powers that be, said so.

As for the red herring of saying that a 200-300 year old Solarian League SD is the same as a 20 year old Gryphon, well if that is the case the reliants should be scrapped, the Saganami A, scrapped, the Shrikes need be replaced in 10 years, all of them.

By the time another 100 SD(P) are ready, your going to need to replace the current Medusa Class too old.

Then again it comes to cost. You forget the SEM has next to no money coming in. Too bad Invictus don't have missile tubes. They would make great Q Ships. Harrington's would be great as Q Ships, they could allow for runs in hostile territory. Doesn't help the SEM unless they lease them.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by kzt   » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:47 pm

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KNick wrote:The difference between a reactor powered missile's launcher and a capacitor powered missile's launcher is where the power cord is plugged in. The reactor powered missiles have there reactor lit off in the launcher, requiring that the "power cord" be there. So there is a delay of a few seconds while the reactor warms up. The capacitor powered bird is plugged in while it is in the magazine. It is already powered up when it hits the launcher, so it fires without a delay.

Umm, what is your source for this? There is a LOT of energy in the capacitors of a MDM. Enough that a single capacitor accident in the magazine would be highly similar to a warhead going off in the magazine. Except that with a capacitor failure you'd likely chain fire every other bird being prepped in the magazine.

A missile blowing up in the tube is outside the main armor envelope, so while it is BAD, it is survivable. The ship may be mission killed, but it is likely to still be intact. A multi-megaton explosion inside the main armor belt seems a lot more likely to be a really bad day that likely involves someone writing a lot of letters.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by KNick   » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:18 am

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kzt wrote:
KNick wrote:The difference between a reactor powered missile's launcher and a capacitor powered missile's launcher is where the power cord is plugged in. The reactor powered missiles have there reactor lit off in the launcher, requiring that the "power cord" be there. So there is a delay of a few seconds while the reactor warms up. The capacitor powered bird is plugged in while it is in the magazine. It is already powered up when it hits the launcher, so it fires without a delay.

Umm, what is your source for this? There is a LOT of energy in the capacitors of a MDM. Enough that a single capacitor accident in the magazine would be highly similar to a warhead going off in the magazine. Except that with a capacitor failure you'd likely chain fire every other bird being prepped in the magazine.

A missile blowing up in the tube is outside the main armor envelope, so while it is BAD, it is survivable. The ship may be mission killed, but it is likely to still be intact. A multi-megaton explosion inside the main armor belt seems a lot more likely to be a really bad day that likely involves someone writing a lot of letters.



To be honest, I don't remember exactly where I got that idea. I seem to remember it as a comment about how the missile now had to wait for the reactor to be lit off, rather than being immediately ready to fire, when either the original Mk16 or Mk-23 was introduced.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by kzt   » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:37 am

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I poked around after I posted that and there is a pearl about this, but it is explicitly about non-MDMs. David's comments about MDMs mention quite clearly the enormous amount of power in the plasma capacitors needed to power up all the missiles, which makes damage to pods about to be launched quite an exciting event.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/174/0

If I was building an MDM tube launcher I'd not want to charge the missile until it was at least outside the core armor.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by wastedfly   » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:20 am

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kzt wrote:I poked around after I posted that and there is a pearl about this, but it is explicitly about non-MDMs. David's comments about MDMs mention quite clearly the enormous amount of power in the plasma capacitors needed to power up all the missiles, which makes damage to pods about to be launched quite an exciting event.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/174/0

If I was building an MDM tube launcher I'd not want to charge the missile until it was at least outside the core armor.


So, I get to laugh myself silly. He actually has all this energy transferred IN THE MAGAZINE, inside the core armor!

Ye, Godz. Yes, why do we not store the powder with the explosive shells! Brilliant solution! Hey, lets send all the chain smokers aboard ships down there as well while we are at it... Nothing could possibly go wrong. Nah.

By changing the word from capacitor to fusion, somehow the energy required to motivate the missile to 0.8c via 3 stages along with its ECM magically becomes "safe". :roll:

Now I have heard it all.

Now we know why ships would blow up via golden BB's.

Designed by ACME, Roadrunner verses Coyote moron design bureau LLC,. Don't forget the LLC part of it. That way the criminal idiots in charge don't get personally sued for killing countless thousands of spacers.

So, if they really did energize the cap birds in the CORE of the ship, then no, changing to fusion power would be a bad idea as we cannot shut down said fusion birds. Here I am assuming they can at least drain said capacitor birds automatically.
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Re: Revisiting a Gryphon refit.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:44 am

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The other reason to do this is to bring three to six refit slips into each Silesian system. Teach them about MDM missiles and some of the internal ship systems. Plus should any of this information leak it is a big disinformation campaign for leaked info to the League.

It brings all the Silesian systems into the training of the new systems and it creates a defensive System Guard. Bring building and refit slips into each Silesian system and confuses the heck out of the league.

League gets to know that 3 drive capacitor missiles with a 30 million km drive range. Which matches what the BC group reports. Everyone else who has reported anything doesn't contradict this info. Suggest that systems are protected by similar or Mk41 A missiles in pods. Which can also be deployed. And provides data that LAC are helping with telemetry links. Old school LAC. But that each system is fairly well protected.

Adding the captured Cataphracts in pods give each system 6000 10 cataphract DDM pods. Put another 1000 9 Mk41 A pods. In each system and 100+ Shrike and Ferret LAC plus Highlander 2B (keyhole Mk5) LAC (2 per SD). Real information and yet disinformation. Freeing up all the new fusion missiles and systems for front line duty with the league being misinformed about all of them.

After the SD refits, you start with the older BC's refit with LERM and the CA CLand some of the newest DD. Could even refit the newest of the BC, CL and DD SLN captured systems for use by local Captured or Freed League / Verge / Shell worlds. Should be 50+ of each. Using LERM they can be made into effective picket ships. Add a System Guard to each captured freed system.
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