Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 37 guests

system cruiser

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: system cruiser
Post by Cheopis   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:08 am

Cheopis
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1633
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:04 am

MaxxQ wrote:
drothgery wrote:LACs fit in freighter holds without much difficulty; it's been done before.


Uroboros was referring to the OP where it was mentioned light and heavy cruisers. Those are just a tiny bit larger than LACs, and despite what some people might fantasize about, I think it would be a bit more problematic transporting those inside a merchie.


Certainly problematic, but certainly doable. That's how the Oyster Bay attackers were brought to the edge of Manticore space. Small, full-up warships, carried inside cargo vessels. I don't think they were ever properly described in size, but they hit a LOT of targets with some very substantially sized missiles, so we're talking something that had to be, at minimum, the size of a light cruiser, or maybe a destroyer if they were extremely heavily specialized for the role of covert deployment of graser torpdos.
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by Grashtel   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:24 am

Grashtel
Captain of the List

Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:59 am

Cheopis wrote:Certainly problematic, but certainly doable. That's how the Oyster Bay attackers were brought to the edge of Manticore space. Small, full-up warships, carried inside cargo vessels. I don't think they were ever properly described in size, but they hit a LOT of targets with some very substantially sized missiles, so we're talking something that had to be, at minimum, the size of a light cruiser, or maybe a destroyer if they were extremely heavily specialized for the role of covert deployment of graser torpdos.

You are confusing the Ghosts, small (frigate sized IIRC) scouts that were snuck into the system by deploying them from freighters, and the Sharks, battleship sized podlayers which hypered in under their own power about a light month out to try and avoid detection and launched the actual attack.
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:57 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3636
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Troy, Mi

Grashtel wrote:
Cheopis wrote:Certainly problematic, but certainly doable. That's how the Oyster Bay attackers were brought to the edge of Manticore space. Small, full-up warships, carried inside cargo vessels. I don't think they were ever properly described in size, but they hit a LOT of targets with some very substantially sized missiles, so we're talking something that had to be, at minimum, the size of a light cruiser, or maybe a destroyer if they were extremely heavily specialized for the role of covert deployment of graser torpdos.

You are confusing the Ghosts, small (frigate sized IIRC) scouts that were snuck into the system by deploying them from freighters, and the Sharks, battleship sized podlayers which hypered in under their own power about a light month out to try and avoid detection and launched the actual attack.


And there was no mention on the Ghosts actual armament iirc. As warships, I doubt they are totally naked, but being firgate sized, I also doubt they have THAT much - they are still limited by the mass used for the hyper generator and the Fusion plant.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by Duckk   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:04 am

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4142
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:29 pm

MoH:

The Ghost-class ships had no offensive armament at all. They were designed to do precisely what Apparition was doing at this moment, and there was no point pretending they'd be able to fight their way out of trouble if the other side managed to find them in the first place. So they'd been equipped with every stealth system the fertile imaginations of Anastasia Chernevsky and the rest of the MAN's R&D establishment had been able to devise, packed into the smallest possible platform, and if that meant sacrificing armament, so be it. Even their anti-missile defenses represented little more than a token gesture, and everyone aboard Apparition was thoroughly aware of that fact.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:50 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3636
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Troy, Mi

Duckk wrote:MoH:

The Ghost-class ships had no offensive armament at all. They were designed to do precisely what Apparition was doing at this moment, and there was no point pretending they'd be able to fight their way out of trouble if the other side managed to find them in the first place. So they'd been equipped with every stealth system the fertile imaginations of Anastasia Chernevsky and the rest of the MAN's R&D establishment had been able to devise, packed into the smallest possible platform, and if that meant sacrificing armament, so be it. Even their anti-missile defenses represented little more than a token gesture, and everyone aboard Apparition was thoroughly aware of that fact.


And I stand Corrected...
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by SWM   » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:12 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

kzt wrote:
SWM wrote:There is no reason to believe that Mycroft is more expensive than a half-dozen LACS.

Hugely complex cutting-edge FTL based systems that require tens of thousands of tons of honorverse computers and can't be minimized to fit on a 2.5 million ton ship seems likely to be pretty damn expensive to me. Likely 10 percent or more of the cost of a SD(P) and weapon loadout.

And a LAC with cutting-edge fission generator, cutting-edge inertial compensator, cutting-edge beta-squared nodes, Viper missiles, and LERM missiles (in Skimper's plan) isn't expensive? I think you overestimate the cost of Mycroft--it is only a little bit more than Keyhole. It is not 10% of an SD(P) (which has 2 Keyholes!) plus weapon loadout.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by Cheopis   » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:33 am

Cheopis
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1633
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:04 am

Cheopis wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:Uroboros was referring to the OP where it was mentioned light and heavy cruisers. Those are just a tiny bit larger than LACs, and despite what some people might fantasize about, I think it would be a bit more problematic transporting those inside a merchie.


Certainly problematic, but certainly doable. That's how the Oyster Bay attackers were brought to the edge of Manticore space. Small, full-up warships, carried inside cargo vessels. I don't think they were ever properly described in size, but they hit a LOT of targets with some very substantially sized missiles, so we're talking something that had to be, at minimum, the size of a light cruiser, or maybe a destroyer if they were extremely heavily specialized for the role of covert deployment of graser torpdos.


Indeed, as pointed out before, I was incorrect about several important things. However the most important thing to consider is that fully functional ships were transported inside other fully functional ships.

We have been advised that there really isn't a hard upper limit on ship size. Warships are not much bigger only because of gravity compensation issues. A modern navy using modern tech is expected to be able to maintain accelerations within a certain range to be effective.

Manticore's compensator tech has thrown something of a wrench into everyone else's calculations.

Dettweilers might just throw all those expectations out the window completely. Or they might end up being the poster child of a terribly wasteful building project that justifies what everyone else has been saying for decades.
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:02 am

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1736
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:49 pm
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

SWM wrote:[quote="kzt"quote="SWM"There is no reason to believe that Mycroft is more expensive than a half-dozen LACS.[/quote
Hugely complex cutting-edge FTL based systems that require tens of thousands of tons of honorverse computers and can't be minimized to fit on a 2.5 million ton ship seems likely to be pretty damn expensive to me. Likely 10 percent or more of the cost of a SD(P) and weapon loadout.[/quote
And a LAC with cutting-edge fission generator, cutting-edge inertial compensator, cutting-edge beta-squared nodes, Viper missiles, and LERM missiles (in Skimper's plan) isn't expensive? I think you overestimate the cost of Mycroft--it is only a little bit more than Keyhole. It is not 10% of an SD(P) (which has 2 Keyholes!) plus weapon loadout.


As noted Mk23 pods cost much more than Mk16's loaded into a Nike and a Roland with Mk16's weapon load is much more expensive than the LERM in a wolfhound. Putting 12 LERM pods in a system is significantly cheaper than putting however many super expensive Mk25 pods in a system. As for the LAC. They are based on older designs of scaled down warships. No expensive Graser no expensive CLAC they have a fast freighter, of which there are many including 40 or so free ones recently were given to the SEM. Plus several hundred more that could be made or salvaged from recent warships that arrived as a gift to Manticore. Only need a freighter wonder if the SEM can get a hold of any of those, if only there were a bunch under employed right now.

Cost of LAC with modern tech but no fancy weapons outside the LERM is tiny compared to the sensor suite on Mycroft.

One would venture a dozen system pods cost more than half a dozen LAC. Let alone the FTL control systems on Mycroft the Apollo missiles themselves are hugely expensive.

One FF plus 24 Highlander-2 with the 576 LERM missiles. Add another 576 reloads on the FF and compared that to a Mycroft which is 10% of a SD(P) cost, plus system defense pods.

Mycroft has to be bigger than a KH2 platform as it needs crew quarters and the ability to pickup and deploy big system pods. Plus dock LAC unless you going to tell me Mycroft is my Tower system. Which is something which Manticore would never deploy and which had pods that needed to be restarted every month. Only now they don't need be restarted every month.

So funny, you can't have it both ways, so which is it?

The LAC and UMC (unarmed merchant CLAC) "Q" Fast Freighter. 24 modules for carrying LAC. 24 Additional modules, 6 for crew quarters, 6 for repairing LAC 6 for reloading LERM, 6 for consumables. 48 modular transport sections that take up less than half a freighter's cargo hold. Cheap, easy to make, even dirt side. And take no slips to make. LAC can be made Dirtside too if need be.

Could use the free Cataphract missiles too if you want. Only a couple million of them floating about. Makes a good export version. Meyers and the other newly "Acquired" systems would love a fully loaded UMC. Affordable system defense, plus they get a freighter for hauling cargo about.

Remember the Wolfhound can launch 10 missiles off bore plus stacking. The Highlander-2 can launch 24 LERM each. No stacking. Off bore. 24 Highlander-2 give an initial launch of more than all the Wolfhounds. Compared to a Roland barage, 24 Highlander-2 can launch, albeit less effective, 2.25 times the total number of missiles the Roland carries and 12 times as many missiles as a quad stacked off bore launch.

Compared to 24 Shrike, well they have even less range do even less damage and can only fire 1/6 the total missiles. Sure they have grasers but the Honorverse has moved out of energy range engagements.

One wonders how many MB cells could fit on a SD (aka Oburos... Infamous missile ship). Plus LAC Missile tubes. Add in a hundredViper tubes and you have a killer of smaller ships and all the MB cells for killing larger ships. Could have limited internal reloads of the cells. Hmm.
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:53 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6083
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Lord Skimper wrote:Mycroft has to be bigger than a KH2 platform as it needs crew quarters and the ability to pickup and deploy big system pods. Plus dock LAC unless you going to tell me Mycroft is my Tower system.
I got the impression that a Mycroft node was basically a Keyhole II with onboard fusion reactor and (probably) a bit more point defense.

It's a fire control relay, not a manned fort.

You still need a central control point, be that a station, an SD, a fort, a planetary defense HQ - whatever.

So a system with system defense pods, LACs, and Mycroft would have at least one station/fort that housed the LACs and the manned fire control center, then a bunch of Mycroft FTL fire-control relays and system defense missile pods scattered around.


So while I do assume Mycroft is larger than Keyhole II it's not the manned, LAC base, mobile pod mover that you're envisioning.
Top
Re: system cruiser
Post by SWM   » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:32 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Skimper, your Highlander 2 is worthless unless it can accelerate faster than a superdreadnought and use buckler shields. Which, as we have explained several times, requires that it have the fission power plant, improved compensator, and beta-squared nodes. With the LERM missiles, this Highlander 2 is at least as expensive as a Shrike. And that is if the LERM even fits on it, which is not necessarily true.

As far as we know, Mycroft does not have a crew. It is an improved KH2 with internal power system intended for system defense. It is bigger, but nowhere near as big or expensive as you suggest. One Mycroft can control more missiles than your 24 Highlander LACs.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top

Return to Honorverse