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system cruiser

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Re: system cruiser
Post by SWM   » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:52 pm

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Skimper, I wasn't suggesting towing pods. I was saying standard system defense pods. Do you understand what system defense pods are? They have four stages, and can reach just about anywhere in the system you need without towing. They have Apollo control missiles. They are controlled by a base--the current design is called Mycroft--which can defend itself and control a huge number of pods. And system defense pods are designed an endurance of many months, so they don't need to be serviced all the time. They do not get towed around. They sit and wait for the command to launch.

Manticore does not need your ultralight LERM platforms, because it already has something much better.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:57 am

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How big is Mycroft and how much does it cost and how long does it take to build and how much are system pods and system Mk25 missiles compared to a or group of LAC (different brand than the Shrike Ferret brand) using a much less expensive Missile.

Like a business it might be nice to have a limousine pick up all the workers from their houses at each shift and take them home after each shift but it would be a lot cheaper to buy them a transit pass. Or pay gas money and or parking. One is much better than the other. One costs a lot more.

Every world in Silesia might want Mycroft. But might not be able to afford it. Instead you send a Wolfhound only a wolfhound is only there once every 3 month or less. For a week.

Will the Mycroft be available for every every GA system? Every of the 300+ Haven systems? The other 30-35+ Andy Silesian Systems? Every new system in Talbot?

Can Mycroft do anything to an Oyster bay / Yawatta Strike? An LAC might not do much. But just surviving such an attack is another thing. Mycroft has bubble sidewalls up 24/7 can fight off a small forte (invisible) and multiple laser heads, moves about the system never in an same place twice? Can it dodge or impose its wedge in seconds on a Graser torpedo? Or is there only one of them?

Can Mycroft, maybe it can, do freighter patrol and inspections? Can it disable a freighter without destroying it?

If it can do all this why make ships of the wall any more?

A few Roland freighter escorts the Saganami C and a Nike command per system.

Assemble your Mycroft a light month out and sail it in, presumably it can move, in 1.5-2 month the system is yours. No need for SD(P) anymore.

Best shift production in bolt hole away from SD(P) and over to Mycroft.

Funny thing is you still will need LAC to get eyes on things. The Highlander 2 a different Brand of LAC (Merrall vs Nike) would work good with Mycroft as long as you can afford to deploy it. The Shrike would be great with the Mycroft attacking new systems / worlds. Different kinds of CLAC perhaps mounting Mk25 would work pretty good too.

Kind of like star wars only the tie fighter is a Shrike and Mycroft is a Death Star. A Death Star in orbit of every world and your Galaxy is safe. Broke but safe.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Dafmeister   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:07 am

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My eyes are actually hurting now...
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:47 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:How big is Mycroft and how much does it cost and how long does it take to build and how much are system pods and system Mk25 missiles compared to a or group of LAC (different brand than the Shrike Ferret brand) using a much less expensive Missile.

Like a business it might be nice to have a limousine pick up all the workers from their houses at each shift and take them home after each shift but it would be a lot cheaper to buy them a transit pass. Or pay gas money and or parking. One is much better than the other. One costs a lot more.
Um, the entire reason Haven and Manticore both started going to LACs and back by system defense pods was for economy. A system like that (even with an expensive centeral control node like Mycroft or Moriarty) was a lot cheaper way to defend against a given threat level than stationing a fleet capable of the same firepower.

Now that doesn't necessarily scale down, since there's a minimum cost to emplace the control nodes and enough missiles to cover the system. So if you're only worried about the odd solo pirate, or even a raid from a few old CAs, then you could defend against that threat for cheaper with just LACs or just a modern DD or CL. But much past that and the economies of the system defense missiles start coming into play.

Now is such a system a complete solution? No. You still need ships for customs work, search and rescue, investigating suspicious hyper emergences, etc, etc.


Oh and nothing, including your system cruiser, is going to help much if a Silesia or Talbott system gets hit with a Oyster Bay style attack. The sensors needed to pick up hyper emergences at a light month or more (the vast multi kilmeter wide sensor arrays) are apparently more expensive than an entire system-defense missile installation. So those secondary or tertiary systems are never going to see the attack coming because the ships can easily drop out of hyper further out than the system (or ships stationed in it) can see.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by HungryKing   » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:11 am

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Well those arrays are scalable, but even the version that can detect for a few light-days is quite expensive. Oh, and they are also exposed, the versions that see for a light-week or more are appearantly implaced outside the hyperlimit...

The real objection to the system cruiser is that the joy of modern LACs is that, unlike starships, they sneak into range, going to LERMs wastes that ability.

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, the entire reason Haven and Manticore both started going to LACs and back by system defense pods was for economy. A system like that (even with an expensive centeral control node like Mycroft or Moriarty) was a lot cheaper way to defend against a given threat level than stationing a fleet capable of the same firepower.

Now that doesn't necessarily scale down, since there's a minimum cost to emplace the control nodes and enough missiles to cover the system. So if you're only worried about the odd solo pirate, or even a raid from a few old CAs, then you could defend against that threat for cheaper with just LACs or just a modern DD or CL. But much past that and the economies of the system defense missiles start coming into play.

Now is such a system a complete solution? No. You still need ships for customs work, search and rescue, investigating suspicious hyper emergences, etc, etc.


Oh and nothing, including your system cruiser, is going to help much if a Silesia or Talbott system gets hit with a Oyster Bay style attack. The sensors needed to pick up hyper emergences at a light month or more (the vast multi kilmeter wide sensor arrays) are apparently more expensive than an entire system-defense missile installation. So those secondary or tertiary systems are never going to see the attack coming because the ships can easily drop out of hyper further out than the system (or ships stationed in it) can see.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Vince   » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:27 am

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HungryKing wrote:Well those arrays are scalable, but even the version that can detect for a few light-days is quite expensive. Oh, and they are also exposed, the versions that see for a light-week or more are appearantly implaced outside the hyperlimit...

The real objection to the system cruiser is that the joy of modern LACs is that, unlike starships, they sneak into range, going to LERMs wastes that ability.

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, the entire reason Haven and Manticore both started going to LACs and back by system defense pods was for economy. A system like that (even with an expensive centeral control node like Mycroft or Moriarty) was a lot cheaper way to defend against a given threat level than stationing a fleet capable of the same firepower.

Now that doesn't necessarily scale down, since there's a minimum cost to emplace the control nodes and enough missiles to cover the system. So if you're only worried about the odd solo pirate, or even a raid from a few old CAs, then you could defend against that threat for cheaper with just LACs or just a modern DD or CL. But much past that and the economies of the system defense missiles start coming into play.

Now is such a system a complete solution? No. You still need ships for customs work, search and rescue, investigating suspicious hyper emergences, etc, etc.


Oh and nothing, including your system cruiser, is going to help much if a Silesia or Talbott system gets hit with a Oyster Bay style attack. The sensors needed to pick up hyper emergences at a light month or more (the vast multi kilmeter wide sensor arrays) are apparently more expensive than an entire system-defense missile installation. So those secondary or tertiary systems are never going to see the attack coming because the ships can easily drop out of hyper further out than the system (or ships stationed in it) can see.

The big gravitic detector arrays are inside the hyper-limit. Ashes of Victory gives us details on the Havenite arrays at Enki (Barnett)
Ashes of Victory, Chapter 35 wrote:The citizen admiral clamped his hands behind him and took a slow, deliberate turn around the command balcony above the enormous war room. His outermost sensor shell was seventeen light-minutes from the primary, safely within the hyper limit to at least make hit-and-run raids on it difficult, but far enough out from the gravitational center of Barnett to give the enormous passive arrays a reach of almost two and a half light-weeks, over which they could expect to pick up the hyper transit of anything much bigger than a courier boat. That range put them nine light-minutes outside the planet Enki, and the actual range to the platform closest to the Manties was about thirteen light-minutes. Which meant it would be another—he checked the time—ten minutes and twenty-six seconds before he got a light-speed report from the sensors with the best look at whatever was coming at him. On the other hand, the inner-system arrays had more than enough reach to at least detect such a massive hyper translation. They'd picked up the faster-than-light ripple along the alpha wall as the Manties made transit, and they were picking up a confused clutch of impeller drive signatures now. But they were much too far away to see anything else, which meant Tracking's reports were going to be maddeningly vague until the Manties were a lot deeper in-system. Unfortunately, Tracking had already picked up enough for Dimitri to feel certain the enemy would be coming in a lot deeper. The estimate blinking on the main board said there were over seventy of the wall headed for Enki, and that was no raiding force.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Dafmeister   » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:10 am

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Vince wrote:The big gravitic detector arrays are inside the hyper-limit. Ashes of Victory gives us details on the Havenite arrays at Enki (Barnett)


Or so they thought - that assessment comes before the revelation of the MDM.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:28 pm

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HungryKing wrote:Well those arrays are scalable, but even the version that can detect for a few light-days is quite expensive. Oh, and they are also exposed, the versions that see for a light-week or more are appearantly implaced outside the hyperlimit...

The real objection to the system cruiser is that the joy of modern LACs is that, unlike starships, they sneak into range, going to LERMs wastes that ability.



Space is really big. To guard something means staying close but guarding more than one thing means staying close to both or many. LERM let's you do that. Shipkiller LAC let alone Grasers do not.

As for surviving Oyster bay, your mycroft is gone. They have your pods now. Heck if they sneak up on you while the whole thing is going on are you going to miss the one pod they snagged and took with them? Didn't even know they where there. Put people on the pod and you know they are there.

I'm not against Mycroft, it is great. It's just very expensive and can the SEM afford 50+, can Haven afford 300+? Add 50 more for the Andie's 1-2 for Grayson and 1 for Beowulf. I do suppose a Mycroft system could be leased to Beowulf, first Order places. But your not going to deploy in Meyers or any other place Mike and crew "liberated". 24 Highlander II LAC and a transport fast freighter or even a slow one.

Heck that could be the new Q ship no armour no weapons, sidewalls and bucklers, a couple launch hatches camouflaged and the other half for cargo.

Take out the LAC's you have a fast freighter, add the LAC you have a Q ship.

Best of all its cheap.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by SWM   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:51 pm

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There is no reason to believe that Mycroft is more expensive than a half-dozen LACS.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by kzt   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:54 pm

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SWM wrote:There is no reason to believe that Mycroft is more expensive than a half-dozen LACS.

Hugely complex cutting-edge FTL based systems that require tens of thousands of tons of honorverse computers and can't be minimized to fit on a 2.5 million ton ship seems likely to be pretty damn expensive to me. Likely 10 percent or more of the cost of a SD(P) and weapon loadout.
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