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system cruiser

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Re: system cruiser
Post by n7axw   » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:01 am

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[/quote]
Hm. Good point. Skimper, are you talking about a new LAC that is half the mass of the Shrike, or twice the length of the Shrike? Half the mass doesn't work. Twice the length could be modernized, but are you just trying to make another variation of HAC? How much will this ship mass?[/quote]

I think he talking about the LERM not the Mk16 in his design. that makes everything different.[/quote]

Rather than all the dilly dallying around, why not just use shrikes and ferrets or the closest approximation as possible. I bet a couple wings could ruin the day of any sln squadron below the wall.

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Re: system cruiser
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:43 pm

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Theemile wrote:I think he talking about the LERM not the Mk16 in his design. that makes everything different.
Whoops, your right - he said Mk36 not Mk16. :oops:
Still, I don't think anyone's successfully cramming even 12 LERMs into a LAC broadside.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by KNick   » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:07 pm

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How is an SLN squadron commander going to react if while he is dodging missiles fired from a range he can not respond to, he is suddenly taken under energy fire by the equivalent of an SDs broadside? Especially if he has no idea that there is anything in range to engage him. With their improved grasers, the newest generation of Manty LACs with bow and stern walls, should be able to take on a BC squadron with escorts. For the lighter escorts (DDs, CLs and possibly CAs), it is basically one shot, one kill. Even if it is only a mission kill, every escort put out of action increases the odds against the BCs. And how many SD equivalent graser hits before even a BC is mission killed?
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:08 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:I think he talking about the LERM not the Mk16 in his design. that makes everything different.
Whoops, your right - he said Mk36 not Mk16. :oops:
Still, I don't think anyone's successfully cramming even 12 LERMs into a LAC broadside.


Don't forget, LACs used to carry Capitol missiles in their box launchers for decisive combat. Those old missiles were 130 Tons apiece and the Highlanders did carry 2 6 cell boxes in each side. You should be able to drop in a LERM or MK15 ERM no problem. While they would fit, the fusion reactors on a Mk 16 may pose a bit larger of a problem, needing a more capable launcher and shielding that you usually find in a box.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:16 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Whoops, your right - he said Mk36 not Mk16. :oops:
Still, I don't think anyone's successfully cramming even 12 LERMs into a LAC broadside.


Don't forget, LACs used to carry Capitol missiles in their box launchers for decisive combat. Those old missiles were 130 Tons apiece and the Highlanders did carry 2 6 cell boxes in each side. You should be able to drop in a LERM or MK15 ERM no problem. While they would fit, the fusion reactors on a Mk 16 may pose a bit larger of a problem, needing a more capable launcher and shielding that you usually find in a box.

I know LACs carried their missiles in single-shot box launchers. But I don't recall seeing anything about those missiles being Capitol Ship missiles. I'd assumed that for size reasons they were DD/CL (or smaller) missiles...

Do you have a reference for the size of the missiles the Highlanders (or other older LACs) carried?

FWIW the SITS books show the Highlanders as carrying Mk26 Anti Ship Missiles. I checked and don't see anything else carrying those.
Mk34 Anti Ship Missiles
* DD Falcon, Culverin classes; CL Chanson, Illustrious classes

Mk50 Anti Ship Missiles
* CL Courageous-class [text states older/smaller missile]

Mk13 Anti Ship Missiles
* CA Apollo, Crusader, Prince Consort, Star Knight, Broadsword classes; BC Reliant, Redoubtable, Homer classes

Mk19 Anti Ship Missiles
* DN Majestic-class; SD King William-class
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Re: system cruiser
Post by munroburton   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:03 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Whoops, your right - he said Mk36 not Mk16. :oops:
Still, I don't think anyone's successfully cramming even 12 LERMs into a LAC broadside.


Don't forget, LACs used to carry Capitol missiles in their box launchers for decisive combat. Those old missiles were 130 Tons apiece and the Highlanders did carry 2 6 cell boxes in each side. You should be able to drop in a LERM or MK15 ERM no problem. While they would fit, the fusion reactors on a Mk 16 may pose a bit larger of a problem, needing a more capable launcher and shielding that you usually find in a box.


The only box launchers worth using are missile pods. A LAC towing a single pod therefore gets a number of box launchers without compromising shipboard tonnage for single-use-per-engagement weapons.

The reason those old LACs had box launchers is they weren't expected to survive the engagement and needed the heaviest opening punch they could land. They were slower than destroyers built by the same navies(see Highlander vs Noblesse/Falcon or Faith vs Ararat/Zion).

Modern LACs are completely different beasts, with a different mission profile in mind from the beginning of the design process.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:47 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:Don't forget, LACs used to carry Capitol missiles in their box launchers for decisive combat. Those old missiles were 130 Tons apiece and the Highlanders did carry 2 6 cell boxes in each side. You should be able to drop in a LERM or MK15 ERM no problem. While they would fit, the fusion reactors on a Mk 16 may pose a bit larger of a problem, needing a more capable launcher and shielding that you usually find in a box.

I know LACs carried their missiles in single-shot box launchers. But I don't recall seeing anything about those missiles being Capitol Ship missiles. I'd assumed that for size reasons they were DD/CL (or smaller) missiles...

Do you have a reference for the size of the missiles the Highlanders (or other older LACs) carried?

FWIW the SITS books show the Highlanders as carrying Mk26 Anti Ship Missiles. I checked and don't see anything else carrying those.

<snip>


I'm looking and not finding at the moment. Old LACs were always called "egg shells armed with Hammers" because they typically carried the heaviest missiles possible due to their boxes one shot nature and their short lifespans in combat. Not certian if the Highlanders followed that design trend or it was just a general comment.

Still looking.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:46 pm

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Hmm where to start.

Mk36 LERM 6 per broadside, in an internal box with missile access from the inside.

138 metres by 23 x 22...

Mass unknown given that we don't know what weighs what and Mass for LAC is not the same as any other ship type.

Armour similar to the Ferret / Shrike. It has greater dimensions though so it should be OK. Might have less physical armour, but the powerful wedge sidewalls and bucklers of the Ferret / Shrike. Same kind of Compensator.

Why not use the Shrike or Ferret? Answer - Range. These LAC only have a 1-3.5 M Km range. A Highlander 2 would have a 15 M Km range. A Shrikeis an Attack craft. A Ferret is a glorified Space Superiority Fighter. A Katana is a Dog fighter.

A Highlander 2 is a LAC not a HAC. It has with the same crew levels, twice to four times + duration of a Shrike / Ferret. It is a proven design for the past Millennium? Hundreds of years anyway. The Highlander 2 is just updated.

Add in a modern compensator, modern power system, twin chase Lasers. Guidance telemetry for the Mk36, modern CM / Viper. Roland level PD.

Why not use a Mk16/Mk23 pod? As we all now know, they have a limited life outside your SD(P)/ LACBase/Forte. 1 Month. You can't tow them fast. You can't leave a pod unattended very long without servicing it nor would you want to have it sitting in a backwater system waiting for a passing freighter to steal it.

If you have a SD(P) or Base/Forte you don't need any LAC other than Shrike in the system. But then you wouldn't be a backwater either. The shrike would be docked because even highly motivated modern Shrike LAC crew don't want to sit in a system for a month let alone four month with nothing to do. Sardine effect kicks in.

Now let's assume your worst case your system is captured. Your 6 Shrike are buzzing about for a month or two on half rations but then what, you surrender and blow up your shrike only to be told surrender intact or you might as well stay onboard when you blow it up. You just turned over a top of the line Shrike or blew up.

Highlander 2. It buzzes around for 8 months on half rations. Waiting rescue. If it still gets captured it has modern compensator, but that's it. It has already fired its LERM and with a cell design there is no fancy automated feed system to see. No fancy Graser, nothing more than the viper. A CA level or maybe CL level strength laser to look at. Maybe a fission pile but who hasn't seen that before? No missile pods floating about. Just what appears to be an ordinary if fast LAC.

Highlander 2 can also due to it's size carry extra Ghost Rider or other platforms.

It is and previously was used as a system defense craft for the past 100's of years.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by SWM   » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:16 pm

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Okay, where do I begin.

So you have clarified that you mean a ship with the physical dimensions of an old Highlander--essentially twice as long, and only slightly wider and deeper. If we assume about the same density as a Shrike, we can guess it has about twice the mass (and carries about twice the total content)

If you are installing modern inertial compensators, you also need to install a modern fission generator, and beta-squared nodes. It is not obvious whether a LAC fission generator will be enough on a ship this size. You have a lot more equipment on this ship than on a Shrike, and twice as much mass to accelerate and compensate. But it might; RFC said that a fission reactor might possibly be able to power a courier (I don't think he had quite decided yet--see http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/145/1) but no larger. This new design of your will mass about the same as a courier, and you are using lasers instead of grasers, so for now we will assume that the fission reactor will work.

Then you want to add a second chase laser and "Roland level PD". I assume you mean by quality rather than number, because there isn't enough room on the surface for the number of point defense clusters a Roland carries.

I'm not sure whether the LERM uses the new microfusion generators; if it does, you can't launch the LERM from the kind of box launchers built into the LERM. You need the equipment to ignite the microfusion generators. In any case, the LERM is much larger than the old missiles, so you will have to completely redesign new larger launchers.

You also want to include Viper missiles. These are much larger than the old counter-missiles carried by the Highlander.

The old Highlander actually had a larger crew than a Shrike. So you are also changing crew size, making up for it with modern automation.

Neither Shrike nor Highlander have any armor at all, so we can assume this new ship doesn't either.

On top of everything else, you want to install Ghost Rider recon drones in this ship. I really doubt that there is enough room for any useful number. All the extra room generated by reducing crew size is taken up by the added size of the missile tubes, the larger counter missiles, the larger PDLCs, the larger impeller nodes, and the extra laser.

Since this masses as much as a courier, I'm not sure how you can convince yourself that this is not an HAC. But I'm not going to argue the point strenuously.

You keep saying that this is a proven design, but it isn't. It is a completely new design. The only thing this has in common with a Highlander is the size. There is not a thing on the interior that remains the same. You are changing crew size, doubling the number of beam weapons, installing fission generator, increasing the size of the impeller nodes, doubling the size of the counter missiles and handling equipment, increasing the size of the PDLCs, new larger missile launchers. That does not automatically invalidate the design, but you can't say that this is merely a minor modification of a proven design. It is completely new.

This design could not possibly have eight times the endurance of the Shrike. At most, I could see twice the endurance. But the crew space won't be much bigger than the Shrike. It still won't have sleeping quarters, and only barely enough room to move around. It will be just as uncomfortable inside as a Shrike.

You say that if this ship is captured, the only secret it gives up is the inertial compensator, but that's not true. It gives up the fission reactor (no one except the Alliance has seen the LAC fission reactor), the beta-squared nodes, the buckler shield, the improved sidewalls, the improved PDLCs (Roland PDLCs are much better and fire faster than the rest of the galaxy's), the Viper missile, and the fancy automated feed gear incorporated into the Shrike for the Viper. It has all the same secrets as a Shrike, except the graser, and the graser is just an ordinary graser. The only secret is that they were able to fit one into the Shrike.

I still don't see the point of this ship. If you want to defend a system with longer range missiles, just use some system defense pods and Mycroft.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Theemile   » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:36 pm

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SWM wrote:Okay, where do I begin.

So you have clarified that you mean a ship with the physical dimensions of an old Highlander--essentially twice as long, and only slightly wider and deeper. If we assume about the same density as a Shrike, we can guess it has about twice the mass (and carries about twice the total content)

If you are installing modern inertial compensators, you also need to install a modern fission generator, and beta-squared nodes. It is not obvious whether a LAC fission generator will be enough on a ship this size. You have a lot more equipment on this ship than on a Shrike, and twice as much mass to accelerate and compensate. But it might; RFC said that a fission reactor might possibly be able to power a courier (I don't think he had quite decided yet--see http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/145/1) but no larger. This new design of your will mass about the same as a courier, and you are using lasers instead of grasers, so for now we will assume that the fission reactor will work.

Then you want to add a second chase laser and "Roland level PD". I assume you mean by quality rather than number, because there isn't enough room on the surface for the number of point defense clusters a Roland carries.

I'm not sure whether the LERM uses the new microfusion generators; if it does, you can't launch the LERM from the kind of box launchers built into the LERM. You need the equipment to ignite the microfusion generators. In any case, the LERM is much larger than the old missiles, so you will have to completely redesign new larger launchers.

You also want to include Viper missiles. These are much larger than the old counter-missiles carried by the Highlander.

The old Highlander actually had a larger crew than a Shrike. So you are also changing crew size, making up for it with modern automation.

Neither Shrike nor Highlander have any armor at all, so we can assume this new ship doesn't either.

On top of everything else, you want to install Ghost Rider recon drones in this ship. I really doubt that there is enough room for any useful number. All the extra room generated by reducing crew size is taken up by the added size of the missile tubes, the larger counter missiles, the larger PDLCs, the larger impeller nodes, and the extra laser.

Since this masses as much as a courier, I'm not sure how you can convince yourself that this is not an HAC. But I'm not going to argue the point strenuously.

You keep saying that this is a proven design, but it isn't. It is a completely new design. The only thing this has in common with a Highlander is the size. There is not a thing on the interior that remains the same. You are changing crew size, doubling the number of beam weapons, installing fission generator, increasing the size of the impeller nodes, doubling the size of the counter missiles and handling equipment, increasing the size of the PDLCs, new larger missile launchers. That does not automatically invalidate the design, but you can't say that this is merely a minor modification of a proven design. It is completely new.

This design could not possibly have eight times the endurance of the Shrike. At most, I could see twice the endurance. But the crew space won't be much bigger than the Shrike. It still won't have sleeping quarters, and only barely enough room to move around. It will be just as uncomfortable inside as a Shrike.

You say that if this ship is captured, the only secret it gives up is the inertial compensator, but that's not true. It gives up the fission reactor (no one except the Alliance has seen the LAC fission reactor), the beta-squared nodes, the buckler shield, the improved sidewalls, the improved PDLCs (Roland PDLCs are much better and fire faster than the rest of the galaxy's), the Viper missile, and the fancy automated feed gear incorporated into the Shrike for the Viper. It has all the same secrets as a Shrike, except the graser, and the graser is just an ordinary graser. The only secret is that they were able to fit one into the Shrike.

I still don't see the point of this ship. If you want to defend a system with longer range missiles, just use some system defense pods and Mycroft.


My points on the above:

The Highlander has hammerheads and the Shrike does not; which, other than increased density due to few crew areas and maintenance spaces, is the reason for the shortened hull. A Shrike the length of a Highlander would be a completely different hull.

The LERM is a capacitor fed missile like the mk 15 ERM. Remember, the microfusion plant is smaller than 2 capacitor stacks, but larger than 1.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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