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system cruiser

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system cruiser
Post by arduskaine   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:09 am

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IS thier such as thing as a system cruiser.
For those single system star nations that arent particularly expansionist and dont see the need to build hyper-capable light/heavy cruisers, but still want similarly sized defence vessels, since most LAC's are little more than tin cans with pea shooters, and building 100+ of them could still see them all wiped out by a couple of heavy cruisers if someone decided to attack you.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Duckk   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:17 am

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Re: system cruiser
Post by Hutch   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:22 am

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arduskaine wrote:IS thier such as thing as a system cruiser.
For those single system star nations that arent particularly expansionist and dont see the need to build hyper-capable light/heavy cruisers, but still want similarly sized defence vessels, since most LAC's are little more than tin cans with pea shooters, and building 100+ of them could still see them all wiped out by a couple of heavy cruisers if someone decided to attack you.


So you want something that will provide your system defense without being able to go into hyper but can move around the system?

I think we call these "forts"?
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Re: system cruiser
Post by The E   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:28 am

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Bottom line: If you want to defend your system, but LACs do not provide enough strength and SDs and Forts are beyond your capabilities, building a proper hyper-capable warship is your best bet. Not only does the tonnage saved by ommitting the hyper generator and Warshawski sails not open up potential for a decisive increase in firepower, the addeed flexibility a hyper drive gives you is a good thing to have too (remember that systems are huge, and extend far beyond their hyper limit; if your primary ressource extraction asteroids are outside the limit, having a hyper-capable quick-response ship can be pretty handy)
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Theemile   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:49 pm

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As every one is mentioning, this has been brought up multiple times, and DW has said that no major navy will build a ship like this.

As I brought up before when discussing this, If you you are looking for this solution, you don't have the ability to build a proper warship, and thus you probably don't have the ability to build anything, let alone a decent CA without a hypergenerator. 85+% of navies in the Honorverse buy ships from other systems and no major navy buys these ships - so any purchase would be a special purchase (with a special price) or just an old CA with the hyper system yanked.

Also, a low tech non-Hyper CA (A HAC - Heavy Assault Craft) will be much slower than a true CA - old LACs only had beta nodes - the Warshawski sail creating Alpha nodes are heavy and expensive, but create a large % of the power needed for the wedge. A classic LAC with just Beta nodes could only hit ~400 Gs of the 550 Gs it was capable of. A technically limited non-hyper HAC will have similiar limitations, making it ~25% slower than the hyper combatant, with significantly weaker sidewalls as well due to the weaker wedge.

This is not to say that a few don't exist - but they are technological curmedgons in 6th rate navies, that souldn't fight against their own weight of a 1900 pattern ship.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Uroboros   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:23 pm

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Theemile wrote:As every one is mentioning, this has been brought up multiple times, and DW has said that no major navy will build a ship like this.

As I brought up before when discussing this, If you you are looking for this solution, you don't have the ability to build a proper warship, and thus you probably don't have the ability to build anything, let alone a decent CA without a hypergenerator. 85+% of navies in the Honorverse buy ships from other systems and no major navy buys these ships - so any purchase would be a special purchase (with a special price) or just an old CA with the hyper system yanked.

Also, a low tech non-Hyper CA (A HAC - Heavy Assault Craft) will be much slower than a true CA - old LACs only had beta nodes - the Warshawski sail creating Alpha nodes are heavy and expensive, but create a large % of the power needed for the wedge. A classic LAC with just Beta nodes could only hit ~400 Gs of the 550 Gs it was capable of. A technically limited non-hyper HAC will have similiar limitations, making it ~25% slower than the hyper combatant, with significantly weaker sidewalls as well due to the weaker wedge.

This is not to say that a few don't exist - but they are technological curmedgons in 6th rate navies, that souldn't fight against their own weight of a 1900 pattern ship.


I'd also like to mention, since most ships are bought not built, moving a ship from one system to another without a hyper drive would be an extreme pain in the ass.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Sharp Claw   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:15 pm

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Instead of buildng or improving a shipyard to produce sub-light ships with cruiser level capabilities, it would be much cheaper to buy two or three generations out of date obsolescent warships form first rate navies like Haven or Manticore. You would get a fully hyper Capable warship, with more than enough firepower to deter pirates or even attacks from other single system navies. Thats about all you can expect from a single system navy for a star system that is not economically prosperous and heavily populated like Beowulf. If one of those first rate multi system navies goes after you, you will be toast anyway. You are not going to hold off that kind of attack no matter how many lacs or hacs you have. For a strategic system defense lots of missile pods would be a better solution.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by drothgery   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:50 pm

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Uroboros wrote:I'd also like to mention, since most ships are bought not built, moving a ship from one system to another without a hyper drive would be an extreme pain in the ass.
LACs fit in freighter holds without much difficulty; it's been done before.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by MaxxQ   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:52 pm

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drothgery wrote:
Uroboros wrote:I'd also like to mention, since most ships are bought not built, moving a ship from one system to another without a hyper drive would be an extreme pain in the ass.
LACs fit in freighter holds without much difficulty; it's been done before.


Uroboros was referring to the OP where it was mentioned light and heavy cruisers. Those are just a tiny bit larger than LACs, and despite what some people might fantasize about, I think it would be a bit more problematic transporting those inside a merchie.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:58 pm

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Uroboros wrote:I'd also like to mention, since most ships are bought not built, moving a ship from one system to another without a hyper drive would be an extreme pain in the ass.
Yep. Although we had a recent discussion about the (largely) historical ship class Corvette, which appeared (back in Travis Long's day) to be more or less a non-hyper capable frigate. (Also back when frigates were useful combatants)

The only semi-recent Corvette we've seen appears to have been due to political rules. Specifically Silesia essentially doesn't let planets (or companies) have their own armed hyper-capable ships; so Schiller has a (some?) Corvette(s) as their SDF's heaviest unit.


I guess even at Silesia's tech level a corvette might be more effective against pirates than a pair of LACs. At least it's big enough to mount a reasonable defensive suite; if the designers are willing to buck the tenancy to overgun ships for low end navies.


But it'd be a waste for some capable of building even Cimeterre-class equivalent LACs to build Corvettes or "system cruisers" over the equivalent cost in LACs. The LACs are quicker accelerating, stealthier, collectively more survivable, and mount sufficiently effective lasers and missiles to tangle with anything up to at least a CA or two. And if instead you can build Shrike-class equivalents...
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