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Honorverse Long Range Exploration?

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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:51 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:There is also the challange that you really do need to end up holding both ends. Hold one end and you can deny others from using it, you just won't know what is going to come out of it next. Since "most' wormholes go from point to point and there is often quite a distance in real and hyper-space to cross between them, you put units out on thier own with a very good chance of having to face fighting at both ends but will little oppertunity for resupply and communication at either end.
Even if you do hold both ends, with only relatively light ships deployed you can't count on getting advanced warning that the forces covering the far end have been driven off.

Wormhole termini are out beyond the hyper limit, and most don't have anywhere near as large or dangerous a resonance zone as the Manticore Junction does. So (with a bit of luck) enemy forces can drop out of hyper almost on top of the termini; quite possibly within at least single drive missile range of the 'lane'.


With light forces you probably can't afford to leave an emergency courier parked in the lane ready to jump; so there's a decent chance that against a heavy enough force (like several divisions of SDs) your light units have to move away from the terminus to hold open the range; or even pull out if they run their ammo loads down too low. In that case they wouldn't have a chance to run a courier through (braving the attackers fire w/o any sidewalls to protect it) to get a warning out.


It's still worth holding both side of a wormhole, if you can, but you shouldn't count on knowing when you've lost control of one side of it. (Not without heavy fortifications to persuade attackers to emerge far enough back that it is safe to keep a standby courier in a fairly predictable area)
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:53 pm

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Let's think about this for a few minutes. Why would anyone want to send research expeditions that far?

First, let's consider JAO - the Jupiter Astronomical Observatory, located in Jupiter's orbit. As fitting for the Solarian League's capital system, it has the largest collection of space-based telescopes and associated instruments, including interferometry-based telescopes in every band of the electromagnetic spectrum; some of these have baselines in the tens of thousands of kilometer range. Measurements made here and similar observatories in the Solarian League provide triangulation-based measurements for every stellar object out to around 2.5 thousand ly of Sol. These measurements are the basis of the Galactic Atlas, which has entries for every stellar-class object (that is, everything that's actually fusing hydrogen, all the way down to M9) in that sphere, as well as a selection of other objects including many white dwarfs, brown dwarfs, black holes and free-floating planets. It also contains radial-velocity estimates of each star's planetary system.

The astronomers have much more parallax data than is incorporated in the Galactic Atlas. However, since the galactic disk is only about 1,000 ly thick at the distance of Sol, and the spiral arms aren't all that much thicker, it is massive overkill for most practical purposes. The only vessels which carry full copies of the Galactic Atlas are wormhole survey vessels such as the Star Kingdom of Manticore's Harvest Joy.

After 2000 years, they've undoubtedly found stellar-mass black holes a good deal closer.
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by SYED   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:08 pm

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I am betting that once worm holes were discvered, they were the main avenue of long distance exploration, as it shorted atl east some of the trip, the easier to travel, the easier to explore.
SAy a wormhole network alliance is created, they will be the main explorarers out there.
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by Vince   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:55 am

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SWM wrote:
Dafmeister wrote:Ah, we're getting into the distinction between a wormhole and a junction. Strictly speacking, a junction is a system with termini of two or more wormhole bridges in it, and those are significantly rarer than single-terminus systems.

Also, I don't think the League would own termini. Its members would own termini, or protectorates and Verge systems would own termini which were leased to League companies on ridiculously generous terms, but the federal government wouldn't own them.

I don't remember what the original textev was. I do remember that we had several discussions about it, maybe five years ago or more. As I recall, the general conclusion at the time was that text really did mean that there were no junctions in Solarian-claimed space. However it was phrased, the Visigoth Wormhole Junction was taken to be a very clear contradiction. Cthia, do you have a reference to the original text?

Here is the text that says that the Solarian League doesn't have any junctions in it:
More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (6) Interstellar Politics and Imperialism, (B) The Solarian League: wrote:The League itself contains no wormhole junctions, but at least five junctions have termini in League territory. Where possible, the League has secured control of the junction at the far end of the wormhole as a defensive measure, though the use of force majeure to do so remains contrary to League policy. Nor, for the most part, has force been required, as the League is well able to proffer economic and industrial incentives to encourage most colony worlds to accept League membership quite eagerly.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Keep in mind that this was from an earlier version of David's tech bible that was erroneously published, leading to David's Author's Afterward quoting Shanon Foraker's Oops! at the end of Ashes of Victory.

And as has been pointed out, Visigoth has both a wormhole junction and is a League member.
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:32 am

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That said the League has NO JUNCTIONS within it but that at least 5 JUNCTIONS HAVE TEMINI IN IT. So there AT LEAST 5 know wormhole junctions (of which Manticore has one) and we don't seem to have the names or locations of the other 4 OR where the other termini of those 4 are.
A JUNCTION seems to be defined/described as a wormhole which has more than one wormhole terminus connected through a central point.
That would be as opposed to a "regular" wormhole which is a "Bridge" and which connects only two points.

The Alignment Wormhold network isn't included in this

The wormhole at Joshua is NOT described as leading to a Junction. The Terra Haut wormhole to Erewhon is NOT described as being part of a Junction.

We need much more information on the maps including those systems that have wormholes and where they go. Also those systems that are described as relatively close to Talbott sector that Manticore is helping (or were mentioned but are not getting help yet or the revolt failed) and see what is going on. And just where (other than Visigoth) are the rest of the RF? So much informaton we don't have. :)
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by Garth 2   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:29 pm

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It is quiet possible that pure scientific missions have been launch using a combination of cryo and hyperdrive.

After all if an agency (government/foundation) was going to offer the right incentives combined with curiosity, someone would take them up on it.

For example, compound interest of the crews/teams wages would make it a promising mission, combined with the capability of finding something complete new and being the only people with data (when they get back) would make an impact.
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by SWM   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:29 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:That said the League has NO JUNCTIONS within it but that at least 5 JUNCTIONS HAVE TEMINI IN IT. So there AT LEAST 5 know wormhole junctions (of which Manticore has one) and we don't seem to have the names or locations of the other 4 OR where the other termini of those 4 are.
A JUNCTION seems to be defined/described as a wormhole which has more than one wormhole terminus connected through a central point.
That would be as opposed to a "regular" wormhole which is a "Bridge" and which connects only two points.

The Alignment Wormhold network isn't included in this

The wormhole at Joshua is NOT described as leading to a Junction. The Terra Haut wormhole to Erewhon is NOT described as being part of a Junction.

We need much more information on the maps including those systems that have wormholes and where they go. Also those systems that are described as relatively close to Talbott sector that Manticore is helping (or were mentioned but are not getting help yet or the revolt failed) and see what is going on. And just where (other than Visigoth) are the rest of the RF? So much informaton we don't have. :)

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Erewhon has a Wormhole Junction with two termini, one at Terre Haute and the other at Joshua (Sasebo System).
In the glossaries in War of Honor and At All Costs, we have:
Republic of Erewhon—Government of the Erewhon System. A single-system unit which controls the Erewhon Wormhole Junction connecting the Solarian League and the Phoenix Wormhole Junction.

Elsewhere it explained that the term Phoenix Wormhole Junction is a misnomer--there are two separate wormhole termini in the Phoenix Cluster, at Hennesy and Terre Haute, close enough together that common usage calls it a Junction. Descriptions in the text make it clear that Terre Haute (in the Phoenix cluster) is the other terminus of the Erewhon Junction.

In Beginnings, we find the following quote:
Manischewitz had to think for a moment before he could place the Lytton System, then he remembered. It was a small, dirt-poor, nominally independent star system within a few light years of the Sasebo System . . . one terminus of the Erewhon Junction.


Numerous other places refer to Erewhon as a Junction. And the maps all mark Erewhon as a junction with two termini, most notably this map from David Weber:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/im ... on_map.gif.

I think the evidence is clear that Erewhon is a two-termini Junction, and one terminus is in the Solarian League, specifically at Joshua, or the Sasebo System.
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by SYED   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:46 am

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If there are no junctions in the league, is there potential for there being junctions or terminii in the shell, or more likely the verge.
If the wormholes are the only viable way for the league to influence the verge, then with this terminii shut down, they crippled to such an extent, they might decide to force independants over to their control.
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:36 am

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snip
Numerous other places refer to Erewhon as a Junction. And the maps all mark Erewhon as a junction with two termini, most notably this map from David Weber:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/im ... on_map.gif.

When do you think that map will be updated to include the Torch wormhole terminus?
.
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Re: Honorverse Long Range Exploration?
Post by SWM   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:23 am

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George J. Smith wrote:snip
Numerous other places refer to Erewhon as a Junction. And the maps all mark Erewhon as a junction with two termini, most notably this map from David Weber:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/im ... on_map.gif.

When do you think that map will be updated to include the Torch wormhole terminus?

Well, that particular map was a gift from Weber to the fans, as was the "illegible" map of the Mesa region. David has certainly marked the Torch wormhole on his own private map, but we won't see the entire thing. There is no telling when or if Weber will decide to share another section of his map with us. I doubt we will get to see a map with that wormhole junction until Manticore discovers its location.

If you are wondering about Sawa's composite map at the honorglossary site, Sawa has marked the stub of the wormhole, but he can't include the entire thing until we get a map from RFC showing the other end.
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