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Plot twists that WON'T happen

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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:07 pm

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Hutch wrote:Therefore Manticore would have no legal reason to attack them, thus putting the Manties in the wrong before the entire Known Space. Not to mention that the Andies would have looked askance at such behavior toward a one-time ally and confirmed neutral and begun to wonder if an Alliance with Manticore was really in their best interests--and given the conservatives in Grayson some major talking points.

And given the results of Haven's first strike, diverting enough ships and men to take and hold Erewhon would have streched Manticore's resources to the limit at a time when they needed everything on the line.

IMHO as always. YMMV.
kzt wrote:If you are supplying guns and/or tech to my enemies and are formally allied, then you are my enemy. Since making your ally protect you is in my interest, and blowing you out of the war is also in my interest, it will likely be a bad day when I get a couple of squadrons freed up. If you wanted to be neutral then you wouldn't be arming the people with whom I was formally at war with, now would you?

Occupy isn't needed, I roll in and blow up every ship, and orbital facility in the system and kill anyone who trys to stop me. You wanted to count on the peeps to protect you, well, good luck on that. This turns you from a net gain to a net loss to my enemies, who will either 'betray you' or be forced to divert a significant amount of combat power to support their ally. Either way, it's good for me and bad for you and your ally.
Zakharra wrote:

If Erewhon had been building and supplying weaponry, ships and supplies and soldiers/naval personnel as well as offering the RHN a place to base their fleets for operations against the SKM/SEM, then you would be correct. Sending in a fleet to flatten Erewhon would have been the proper response, but at the resumption of the war, Erewhon declared itself neutral to -both- parties even though they were allied to Haven atm, and Haven respected that declaration. Besides, Havan had already gotten most of the tech goodies Erewhon had gotten from the SKM/SEM, so by the time the war resumed, there was little Erewhon could offer the RH militarily or economically. There was little reason to attack the system.

Agree. By the time the war is resumed, the damage is done. Erewhon isn't going to be supplying any more tech to Haven, and the resulting political damage caused by an attack would have been much worse that taking the action they did - Jacking up the shipping rates through the junction, and diplomatically freezing them out of the alliance.
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:47 pm

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Zakharra wrote:There was little reason to attack the system.

It makes a point.

And it forces Haven to either protect them per their treaty, or stab them in the back in their moment of need.

If they don't like it they can file a complaint with the space police.
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:51 pm

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kzt wrote:
Zakharra wrote:There was little reason to attack the system.

It makes a point.

And it forces Haven to either protect them per their treaty, or stab them in the back in their moment of need.

If they don't like it they can file a complaint with the space police.

But the political costs are way too high.
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:52 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:But the political costs are way too high.

Really? They would be what?
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:08 pm

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kzt wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:But the political costs are way too high.

Really? They would be what?

With your smaller allies, with the Andermani, with the SL where you are going to be treated as a rogue imperial state attacking anyone who annoys you. Yes, the SLN is not up to the standard of Manticore, but they have a hell of a lot of ships, the difference isn't as great as it will be later, and you still have a massive number of Haven ships to deal with. Also Erewhon still has contacts with the SL, so while attacking Erewhon would suit the MAlign nicely, the risks are far too high.
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:35 am

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kzt wrote:If you are supplying guns and/or tech to my enemies and are formally allied, then you are my enemy. Since making your ally protect you is in my interest, and blowing you out of the war is also in my interest, it will likely be a bad day when I get a couple of squadrons freed up. If you wanted to be neutral then you wouldn't be arming the people with whom I was formally at war with, now would you?
The thing about this is, The US did the same thing before both WWs (the “arsenal of democracy”). Supplying the Brits & France with weapons while still claiming "Neutrality", a huge annoyance to German U-boat crews, having to let transports laden with weapons & ammo pass by un-molested because the Star-&-Stripes were waiving over them, unwilling to attack because that would bring the US down on them(not that the Mantis would have the same concern).
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:12 pm

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kzt wrote:
SWM wrote:Erewhon needed to take retribution, and such retribution cannot be delayed without losing the entire point of it. Either Manticore makes good on their promises now, or Erewhon takes its (just, in it's opinion) retribution.

So they would have been OK with the RMN flattening their system one afternoon? Retribution and friend of my enemy and all, plus it forces Haven to dedicate resource to protect them when they active their mutual defense treaty. Wonder what response they would have gotten to that call to the RHN....
No. Which is probably part of why they had a mutual defense treaty (not alliance) with Haven.

But really, their "retribution" was pulling out of an alliance that began ignoring them and then forming a separate peace with Haven while the former alliance was purportedly pursuing the same end.

Maybe (probably) Erewhon should have held off on any tech transfers until the formal peace treaty was in place between Manticore and Haven - but the "ceasefire" had lasted years and everyone was saying they wanted to make it permanent.
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by SWM   » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:36 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
kzt wrote:So they would have been OK with the RMN flattening their system one afternoon? Retribution and friend of my enemy and all, plus it forces Haven to dedicate resource to protect them when they active their mutual defense treaty. Wonder what response they would have gotten to that call to the RHN....
No. Which is probably part of why they had a mutual defense treaty (not alliance) with Haven.

But really, their "retribution" was pulling out of an alliance that began ignoring them and then forming a separate peace with Haven while the former alliance was purportedly pursuing the same end.

Maybe (probably) Erewhon should have held off on any tech transfers until the formal peace treaty was in place between Manticore and Haven - but the "ceasefire" had lasted years and everyone was saying they wanted to make it permanent.

Pretty much my own thoughts.
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by CLA   » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:28 pm

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.
Last edited by CLA on Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's sad when the only words out of people's mouths our "I/we can't" or "it won't work" instead of trying to find ways to do things.
But then, what do I know - I'm nobody. :(
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Re: Plot twists that WON'T happen
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:57 pm

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CLA wrote:And the upside of the tech transfer from Erewhon to Haven is that whenever the Alliance and Haven decide to team up and go after the M.A., Haven will be in a better position to help out militarily.

CRIPES! Can you just imagine the size of the fleet - composed of units from Manticore, Grayson, Haven, Torch, Erewhon, possibly even Anderman - surrounding the planet Mesa????

It would be like the Zentraedi armada from Robotech! :O

Don't forget the Borg Queen, Honor Harrington, sitting in the midst.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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