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Most hated character

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Re: Most hated character
Post by waddles for desert   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:02 pm

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Harrington, based upon her assessment of the situation and her judgement of what best served the interest of the SKM, took the initiative to act beyond regulations to accomplish what she understood to be her superior's intent.

In doing so, she seized command authority that was not hers within the normal chain of command, but that was critical for her to exercise in the moment. It was deemed by her military and political superiors as well as by legal council to be an appropriate exercise of initiative and judgement in extraordinary circumstances.

Therefore, her orders to Young were in FACT lawful.

And, Young had no basis for any PRESUMPTION or BELIEF that the orders were not lawful.

But, even if Young had known that Sarnow was incapacitated and had used his seniority to Harrington to exert command over his squadron to order his squadron to disperse, he still committed a capital offense. When his squadron, clearly under his command and for which he was responsible and to which he had just given orders, returned to the fight, he abandoned them in the face of the enemy without any effort to restore, maintain and exercise his authority over the squadron under his command.

As to deliberations and negotiations for the Declaration of War after the verdict, Hemphill's vote was crucial. A solution was not impossible as it would have been if Young had been executed. The Prime Minister was in the stage of negotiating and bargaining for every remaining vote he needed to reach to finish line. He was going to get there even if it meant making bargains with devils he despised bargaining with. Young's gambit broke the log jam sooner. But, the break was already drawing nigh.
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Re: Most hated character
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:24 pm

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waddles for desert wrote:Harrington, based upon her assessment of the situation and her judgement of what best served the interest of the SKM, took the initiative to act beyond regulations to accomplish what she understood to be her superior's intent.

In doing so, she seized command authority that was not hers within the normal chain of command, but that was critical for her to exercise in the moment. It was deemed by her military and political superiors as well as by legal council to be an appropriate exercise of initiative and judgement in extraordinary circumstances.

Therefore, her orders to Young were in FACT lawful.

And, Young had no basis for any PRESUMPTION or BELIEF that the orders were not lawful.

But, even if Young had known that Sarnow was incapacitated and had used his seniority to Harrington to exert command over his squadron to order his squadron to disperse, he still committed a capital offense. When his squadron, clearly under his command and for which he was responsible and to which he had just given orders, returned to the fight, he abandoned them in the face of the enemy without any effort to restore, maintain and exercise his authority over the squadron under his command.

SNIP


Nobody's saying Honor did the wrong thing, Waddles. She did exactly the right thing. But the fact remains that she did break rules. Did she deserve to be punished for it beyond perhaps a token slap on the wrist? Absolutely not. Did she deserve to have a finger wagged at her face as the wagger said, "Naughty puppy, don't do that again" (with the subtext reading "unless you absolutely have to")? She absolutely did.

Our point that Honor did in fact break regulations was meant to illustrate that the situation the jury was facing wasn't black-and-white, that's all. KNick can probably explain better than I can, though.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Most hated character
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:13 pm

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KNick wrote:John. That is exactly what I was talking about when I said there was great care taken when the specifications were written. He ignored an order from the flagship. Unless he knew Sarnow was incapacitated, the correct interpretation is that the order came from him, relayed through Honor. Whether the order came through Honor because of damage to the flag bridge equipment or because Sarnow was doing something else, as far as Young knew at the moment the order was given, she had every right to be issuing that order. The fact that she did not have that right, at the moment it was given, does not excuse the fact that Young did not obey an order that, as far as he knew, was legitimate. For all that Young knew at the moment the order was given, Sarnow was giving the order. If Sarnow had been capable of giving the order and Young had continued as he actually did, there would have been no question of his guilt, even if Honor had been the one giving the actual order. The specification was written as it was in an attempt to avoid that very ambiguity. Hence the word flagship, rather than the name Sarnow.
I know it was carefully written, but that doesn't mean everyone on the board has to agree that they must take Young's belief into effect.

The briefing to the Board was quite clear that this standard wasn't normally applied by the prosecution, and I could see people legitimately being unhappy with prosecuting someone for failing to follow orders that shouldn't have been given.

(I wouldn't, but I could see where some could)
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Re: Most hated character
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:21 pm

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cthia wrote:I just can't shake the sinking feeling that Firebrand has something up his sleeves. I am waiting for the other shoe to drop and somehow I am certain that Michelle Henke ia going to get caught deep in it, morally dealing with him. I am worried that she may make a wrong decision. The right decision for the situation but the wrong one politically and Elizabeth will have no other option but to disavow her. I feel it..deep inside my bones.


....oh, God, now I'm terrified of that too.

I mean, she's headed for Mesa as of SoF, so one can only hope that she won't be put in that position. But still...

GAH!

I hate Firebrand. Hate him. He upset my Augustus and my Estelle, and Michelle too, and he's getting thousands of people killed, and I just... :evil:
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Most hated character
Post by exiledtoIA   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:26 pm

exiledtoIA
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I can respect that. We'll see.
By the way, I never said Honor and Co. couldn't trust her
( That is up to RFC ). I said I couldn't.


roseandheather wrote:
exiledtoIA wrote:OK, not quite sure how I managed to do that.
My reply to Orobos is between the dotted lines.
Sorry about that.

Rose - the subject was "Most Hated Character"
Hatred is not logical, I have never said Hemphill has not done good, just that she is my most hated character and have explained why.
You don't have to agree and life would be boring if we all did.



My problem isn't that you dislike her - well, okay, it is, but that's not the point - my main problem is that your dislike of her is founded on an absolutely, 1000% incorrect perception of her character.

But clearly no amount of reason in the world is going to get through to you, and I've never been one to beat my head against an unbreakable object.

So I will just sit back and wait for canon to prove you wrong -- as I'm sure it will.
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Re: Most hated character
Post by exiledtoIA   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:35 pm

exiledtoIA
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Firebrand is the character I nominated in the most scared of thread.
This guy wanders around the galaxy spreading weapons and money to fight wars. Not because he believes in the various causes. Not even because its a hobby.
This guy does it because its just a job.



....oh, God, now I'm terrified of that too.

I mean, she's headed for Mesa as of SoF, so one can only hope that she won't be put in that position. But still...

GAH!

I hate Firebrand. Hate him. He upset my Augustus and my Estelle, and Michelle too, and he's getting thousands of people killed, and I just... :evil:[/quote]
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Re: Most hated character
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:43 pm

roseandheather
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exiledtoIA wrote:Firebrand is the character I nominated in the most scared of thread.
This guy wanders around the galaxy spreading weapons and money to fight wars. Not because he believes in the various causes. Not even because its a hobby.
This guy does it because its just a job.




That's exactly why I hate him so much, actually. It's one thing when villains believe in their cause, however disgusting. I mean, at least I can respect that belief, even if I think they're horrible people for what they do.

But Firebrand? He doesn't care. He's spreading terror and death because he gets paid. And that's just... that's just disgusting.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Most hated character
Post by saber964   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:51 pm

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As I read the post on the charges and specifications against Young and the debates for and against Harrington. There was a sum what similar case during WWII. During the first battle of Guadalcanal. The USS San Francisco was severely damaged by gun fire that killed the commanding admiral and most of his staff, the CO and wounded the XO the senior surviving officer on the bridge was the Navigator a LCMD MacCandless IIRC, But the ships senior surviving officer was the ChEng a LCDR Thomas. CMD MacCandless did not pass command to Thomas because Thomas was hard pressed saving the ship during battle. MacCandless also did not pass command of the flagship to the senior surviving officer of the task force the CO of the USS Helena a CAPT Hoover until after the battle was over. MacCandless continued to fight the ship as a flagship. MacCandless was never brought up on charges nor a board of inquirey
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Re: Most hated character
Post by munroburton   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:30 pm

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saber964 wrote:MacCandless was never brought up on charges nor a board of inquirey


Instead, he got promoted and awarded the Medal of Honor. Then given a destroyer of his own.

The naval principle seems to be, if the flagship is still functional and fighting, it should remain in command during a tactical situation even if the admiral is wounded or killed, especially if the situation is dire and ship-to-ship communication is poor. In WW2 they were still using flags and flashing lights.
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Re: Most hated character
Post by Imaginos1892   » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:35 pm

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The Mandarins.

They are the result of a process that has, for about a thousand years, selected administrators based solely on their ability to game the Solly bureaucracy. Like most parasites, Kolokoltsov and the rest have become so specialized that they are incapable of dealing with anything beyond it. As outside forces alter that environment, their inability to adapt causes them to keep going through the same familiar motions that always worked before. They are incapable of doing anything except "the same, only more and bigger" and don't understand why it's not working.

The Pavel Young trial.

I kept hoping to see those bridge recordings released to the newsies, just as they were presented in the court-martial. Show the whole galaxy what a sniveling little worm that gang of privileged pricks was going to such great lengths to protect.
--------------------
I used to be afraid I was paranoid.
I thought people were out to get me.
Now I know the truth - they ARE out to get me.
I feel so much better.
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