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Back from LA with Honorverse move news

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by 61Cygni   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:14 pm

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Werrf wrote:Can't say that I agree with you on the hardness of the Honorverse - it may not be up to 2001 levels of hardness, it's a heck of a lot harder than, say, Star Trek or Doctor Who, and there's a solid effort to maintain realism in most aspects of the story that don't rely on unknown physics. One of the selling points of the Honorverse for me was the long range of combat, the listing of ship speeds in accelerations, the thoroughly worked out mechanics of the wedge, etc. Letting all that go for the sake of loud explosions would probably come under the heading of "Hollywood version of the Honorverse" that RFC specifically denied earlier.


True, the Honorverse is better than most space opera in that regard. But Weber's whole "gravitics" tech is pure fantasy, and what makes it typical space opera. Even without that, the presence of those old standbys, inertial compensators and counter-grav, puts the Homorverse into Star Trek/Doctor Who territory. That disappointed me when I first got into the HH novels. I had hoped that they WERE a harder-SF approach, maybe something like the Earth Alliance tech in Babylon 5, but no, it had the usual fantasy nonsense. Why is there this need to make ships travel at high percentages of the speed of light in normal space? Reduce accelerations and speeds to realisitically plausuible levels and increase hyperspace speeds (hyperspace and similiar FTL systems is the one conceit I grant space opera, 'cuz without it the whole concept of interstellar empires and wars and such is unworkable), and dump the "inertial compensators" and "counter-grav" and other magic tech.


By all means we can fudge the speed of missile combat. I'd expect to see the first salvos fired at something close to real speed, to give us time for plenty of dramatic close-ups and fingers flashing across keyboards, counter missiles, etc, then let follow up salvos come in faster. Editing can handle most of that quite smartly.


I foresee many instances of a scene with missiles being launched with the travel time in minutes being given, followed by the next scene with the missiles reaching the target and the CM's and PDLC's going off; basically cutting out the whole waiting-around time. If that ends up being too awkward to do, then combat ranges will have to decreased and missile speeds increased to where there's only say 15-25 seconds between launch and arrival on target. THAT can be done "real time" in a movie without taking up too much running time, and in a mere 90-minute movie, that's important.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by Werrf   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:48 pm

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61Cygni wrote:True, the Honorverse is better than most space opera in that regard. But Weber's whole "gravitics" tech is pure fantasy, and what makes it typical space opera. Even without that, the presence of those old standbys, inertial compensators and counter-grav, puts the Homorverse into Star Trek/Doctor Who territory. That disappointed me when I first got into the HH novels. I had hoped that they WERE a harder-SF approach, maybe something like the Earth Alliance tech in Babylon 5, but no, it had the usual fantasy nonsense. Why is there this need to make ships travel at high percentages of the speed of light in normal space? Reduce accelerations and speeds to realisitically plausuible levels and increase hyperspace speeds (hyperspace and similiar FTL systems is the one conceit I grant space opera, 'cuz without it the whole concept of interstellar empires and wars and such is unworkable), and dump the "inertial compensators" and "counter-grav" and other magic tech.

There is a space between "fantasy nonsense" and "completely accurate in every detail". It's known, at least in some circles, as the Mohs Scale of Science Fiction hardness. I put the Honorverse at a solid 3 or 4 (somewhere between "Physics plus" and "One big lie"). Doctor Who is a solid 1 ("Science in genre only"), and Star Trek just about scrapes a 2.

I have to wonder, though, if the Honorverse's tech is not what you like, why are you reading them?
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by Bill Woods   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:08 pm

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61Cygni wrote:True, the Honorverse is better than most space opera in that regard. But Weber's whole "gravitics" tech is pure fantasy, and what makes it typical space opera. Even without that, the presence of those old standbys, inertial compensators and counter-grav, puts the Homorverse into Star Trek/Doctor Who territory. That disappointed me when I first got into the HH novels. I had hoped that they WERE a harder-SF approach, maybe something like the Earth Alliance tech in Babylon 5, but no, it had the usual fantasy nonsense. Why is there this need to make ships travel at high percentages of the speed of light in normal space? Reduce accelerations and speeds to realisitically plausuible levels ...

Because otherwise it takes long times to get anywhere, which would drastically change the pace and/or flavor. Either the characters have to spend days trudging across merely interplanetary distances or they jump immediately into FTL from planetary orbit.

"Space is big. Really big. ..."
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:16 pm

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Subject: Back from LA with Honorverse move news

Werrf wrote:Jack Wall has done some good stuff with the Mass Effect 2 score - he can do creepy, haunting, mournful, pulse-pounding action as appropriate.



It's way too early to start thinking about scoring the movie. Until we have a screenplay, at the very least, it's impossible to decide how you want the movie scored, much less by whom. I think Evergreen has some possibilities in mind, and I think I can assure you that the scene with the orchestral music playing over the ship's intercom while Fearless sails to meet Thunder of God will definitely be in the final screenplay.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:20 pm

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waddles for desert wrote:For HotQ, visual distinction is somewhat simplified.

First, there is size. Grayson ships and Massadan ships are generally smaller for their class.

Thunder of God is HUGE.

Honor's ships are in between.

And, some gimmicks comes to mind. Smart paint should make the ships all look about the same until it is time to, "Show our colors, lieutenant!".

The hammerheads could be distinctive - squared or rounded or oval. The superior technology of the SKM ships would approach the "ideal" shape most closely. As the series advances, each newer generation of ship will come closer to the ideal.



The point about the size of the ships, especially for the first movie, is well taken, and one that I've raised with them myself. However, they are deeply committed to making this only the first of several Honorverse movies. Clearly, moving beyond the first film is going to require the initial movie to be a financial success, which is part of their thinking, but if we do make a second and/or third film, simple size will be a much weaker way to differentiate between individual ships. This is particularly true because Evergreen recognizes the distance scale on which Honorverse battles are fought and doesn't want to squeeze down to the kind of ridiculous pointblank ranges at which supposedly deep-space warships engage in all too many movies and television productions. This is part of what I mean when I say they want to do the movie right.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by hvb   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:43 pm

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runsforcelery wrote: The point about the size of the ships, especially for the first movie, is well taken, and one that I've raised with them myself. However, they are deeply committed to making this only the first of several Honorverse movies. Clearly, moving beyond the first film is going to require the initial movie to be a financial success, which is part of their thinking, but if we do make a second and/or third film, simple size will be a much weaker way to differentiate between individual ships. This is particularly true because Evergreen recognizes the distance scale on which Honorverse battles are fought and doesn't want to squeeze down to the kind of ridiculous pointblank ranges at which supposedly deep-space warships engage in all too many movies and television productions. This is part of what I mean when I say they want to do the movie right.



Hi David (and the rest of you all)

I have a few (like five-ish) comments on this; and as Honorcon is somewhat inconveniently located for a Dane, I will just have to contend myself with making them here:


1: HotQ: Great Choice!
As you yourself (and others) note OBS would be harder to transfer to film.

90 minutes is problematic even so, I hope extending to 2 hours (or more) is a possibility if it becomes a necessity; because I think it will.



2: Regarding early introduction of ”the intelligent Nimitz”, how about a scene similar to the swimmingpool & tennisballs scene from SVW (IIRC)? Shows he is a tool user and has a (particular ...) sense of humor. Have him use a lift (elevator for the Havenites, eh, Americans around here :P ) on his own a couple of times, and mission accomplished.


3: As for the religious aspects, a longer briefing in of Honor (maybe while in-route, from Courvoisier, so as not to make the beginning of the movie too boring) could both give more exposition to Courvoisier, and be used for such things as ”for some misguided reason chose to call their new world Masada”. Add a few ”compare and contrast” comments as to the number of denomenations are represented in a single of the Queen’s Cas; costs 1-2% of the screentime available.


4: On the ”onscreen size comparison” of ships, two scenes come to mind: when Honor is contemplating the convoy in-route out of a window (IIRC in a grav, wave, so we get to see the sails blazing), one could have one of the freighters pass behind the Apollo, while Honor’s comments to a mr. exposition slips in that they are medium-sized freighters.

Then later on, when the Greyson navy comes out to greet them, have one of their LACs or tincans pass in front of the Apollo (or the Star Knight).

Sidebar here: I hope we will also establish that there is no sound in space in the Honorverse. I am not expecting kubrickian use of silence thoughout, ... but just one scene of blaring alarms, screaming, and fogging air as a laser rod penetrates into a core hull (e.g. Madrigal’s bridge), instant cut to the outside with a plume of air venting, while the missile tubes continue to fire _All In Utter Silence_. Please. I can go with visible beams for the sake of making the action visible, but not sound in vacuum.


5: Regarding differentiating the hulls:
AFAIK it is canon that:

Both RHN and RMN ships usually sport white hulls, but is it the same shade? Oh, the horror! Stuck with egg-shell ships! :D Ecru or Bone white for the RHN.
(when ”running silent” switching to a mat black would be visually invocative.)

The RHN and the RMN display class, hull number, and name differently (and from the IAN).

RHN gundecks are all one type (except CM/PD decks), RMN gundecks are mixed.

RHN & RMN (& SLN) hammerheads are visibly distinguishable.*

CM launchers are the same size on all classes(sizes) of ships.

*: IIRC the models for SITS have hammerheads that are:
Pyramid-base frustrums on a square base for the RHN.
”round but with a slice taken off top and bottom” frustrums on ditto for the RMN.


So building on this canon and quasi-canon; the GSN (and the Masadan ships) should have distinguishable hammerheads, coloration, and weapons-deck layout, and all should use a different font for their hull number/name.


The Masadans may have opted for a vengeful Red or cleansing flame Yellow for their hull paint (not smartpaint in their case).

Similarly the GSN may have stayed traditionalist and chosen ocean gray, (not light grey, to stay noticeably darker than the RHN ”white”, and not haze gray as that is reserved for when the IAN is introduced), or they may have gone with dark blue.

GSN & Masadan hammerheads may have some distinctive shape too, e.g. hexagonal-base frustrums for one of them, dedocahedral for the other (the description of SLN hammerheads evokes octagonal-base frustrums to me for some reason, which would make that unavailable if others/tMWW agree with this perception).


Finally, if the Hull names and other identifiers are kept in a standardized size (across all navies and hull sizes, and in different fonts; all for the viewers convenience), then the lettering, as well as the size of the CM launchers, will clearly indicate how large a ship is:

If Troubadour fills the entire length from bow hammerhead to beginning of the broadside, you are looking at a tincan. But if the text looks small, then HMS Reliant is one big piece of metal. ;)

Length of hull goes down by [8M-ton/80k-ton]^1/3 or a factor 4,64 between a DD and a SD, so it would still be legible, just a lot smaller, so this would work!



Additionally; if one absolutely have to have a blatant visual distinction between ships of different sizes, it would make sense for classes with armor to truncate the top and bottom more than ships without armor, as the usable (core + weapons deck) hull width would decrease as the decks approach the roof or floor, but the (horizontal) armor thichness must stay the same.

Lighter, basically unarmored, ships only have to pay for the skin of the hull, so they would include this volume; but heavier ships (SDs especially) might omit these decks to mitigate somewhat on the already inflated armor percentage.
(or they might not, just a for instance, for if it proves needful.)


Oh, and during the Blackbird-orbitals energy range engagement, Breslau’s missile volley should be followed from launch to impact, with number of frames reflecting the real distance between the combattants, to give an impression of how long-ranged Honorverse ”close range” is. :D


That game ... not a first person shooter where you protray a Leveler? (Brair Rabbit asked with fear in his voice). Still Alive Bonus only if you capture the cabinet before Adm. McQueen inacts her appellative. :twisted:

Hope you will forward what of this you find useful to the Evergreen team (dumping any chaff).
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by clancy688   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:48 pm

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Hutch wrote:I cannot comment on Battleship as I have not seen the movie, but based on other comments I take it you were being...less than candid? ;)


Just a sample of the craziness which will mess with your mind once you watch Battleship:

- If there's an alien ship 1000 yards away and shooting at you and your friends (in your DDGs) the smart thing to do is obviously close tha range and start shooting back with your 155mm gun and ONLY your gun.
- There's been a groundbreaking new approach invented at targeting missiles: Divide the area into grids, give them names (just like, B4, A3, G5) and if there's an enemy, fire a volley of two Tomahawks targeted at the specific grid he's occupying (Based in no small parts upon the highly realistiv naval strategy game 'Battleship').
- If there's an alien mother ship on the other side of the island and you're in an Iowa-class BB, the smart thing to do is close the range down to perhaps 1000 yards and open fire.
- The above mentioned procedere can be improved massively by dropping your ships anchor to drift the whole 70kton BB around its axis. This is a modernized version of Crossing-the-T.
- There's no harm done in firing everything you have at the alien mother ship - including .50 BMG AAs for example
- To increase survivability when employing above mentioned tactics, a new kind of stealth has been invented: Human warships, regardless of how many visible weapons they're sprouting, will be absolutely undetectable by aliens as long as nobody is firing a shot. This new stealth system is especially effective at ranges less than 10000 yards.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by Hutch   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:31 pm

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clancy688 wrote:
Hutch wrote:I cannot comment on Battleship as I have not seen the movie, but based on other comments I take it you were being...less than candid? ;)


Just a sample of the craziness which will mess with your mind once you watch Battleship:

- If there's an alien ship 1000 yards away and shooting at you and your friends (in your DDGs) the smart thing to do is obviously close tha range and start shooting back with your 155mm gun and ONLY your gun.
- There's been a groundbreaking new approach invented at targeting missiles: Divide the area into grids, give them names (just like, B4, A3, G5) and if there's an enemy, fire a volley of two Tomahawks targeted at the specific grid he's occupying (Based in no small parts upon the highly realistiv naval strategy game 'Battleship').
- If there's an alien mother ship on the other side of the island and you're in an Iowa-class BB, the smart thing to do is close the range down to perhaps 1000 yards and open fire.
- The above mentioned procedere can be improved massively by dropping your ships anchor to drift the whole 70kton BB around its axis. This is a modernized version of Crossing-the-T.
- There's no harm done in firing everything you have at the alien mother ship - including .50 BMG AAs for example
- To increase survivability when employing above mentioned tactics, a new kind of stealth has been invented: Human warships, regardless of how many visible weapons they're sprouting, will be absolutely undetectable by aliens as long as nobody is firing a shot. This new stealth system is especially effective at ranges less than 10000 yards.



My brain asplode. Who wrote this--JarJar Binks?
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by KNick   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:46 pm

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Hutch wrote:
clancy688 wrote:Just a sample of the craziness which will mess with your mind once you watch Battleship:

- If there's an alien ship 1000 yards away and shooting at you and your friends (in your DDGs) the smart thing to do is obviously close tha range and start shooting back with your 155mm gun and ONLY your gun.
- There's been a groundbreaking new approach invented at targeting missiles: Divide the area into grids, give them names (just like, B4, A3, G5) and if there's an enemy, fire a volley of two Tomahawks targeted at the specific grid he's occupying (Based in no small parts upon the highly realistiv naval strategy game 'Battleship').
- If there's an alien mother ship on the other side of the island and you're in an Iowa-class BB, the smart thing to do is close the range down to perhaps 1000 yards and open fire.
- The above mentioned procedere can be improved massively by dropping your ships anchor to drift the whole 70kton BB around its axis. This is a modernized version of Crossing-the-T.
- There's no harm done in firing everything you have at the alien mother ship - including .50 BMG AAs for example
- To increase survivability when employing above mentioned tactics, a new kind of stealth has been invented: Human warships, regardless of how many visible weapons they're sprouting, will be absolutely undetectable by aliens as long as nobody is firing a shot. This new stealth system is especially effective at ranges less than 10000 yards.



My brain asplode. Who wrote this--JarJar Binks?


From the description, his three year old little brother.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by Bill Woods   » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:35 pm

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clancy688 wrote:- To increase survivability when employing above mentioned tactics, a new kind of stealth has been invented: Human warships, regardless of how many visible weapons they're sprouting, will be absolutely undetectable by aliens as long as nobody is firing a shot. This new stealth system is especially effective at ranges less than 10000 yards.

As I recall, this wasn't stealth, but a bug in the aliens' target evaluation software:
'shooting at me' = 'a threat to me'; therefore
'not shooting at me' = 'not a threat to me'.

(I confess, I rather enjoyed the flick. :) )
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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