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In defence of…M’Alignment

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.

What do you think?

Poll ended at Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:59 am

Shut up, douchebag.
10
40%
You may point but the price is too high.
11
44%
Worth considering.
1
4%
On balance the Allignment may be in the right after all.
2
8%
All Hail Mesa!
1
4%
 
Total votes : 25

In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by Moirae   » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:59 am

Moirae
Midshipman

Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:52 am

So the Alignment are the baddies. DW has (as usual) shown that individuals fighting under that banner can be personally as honourable and courageous as the goodies. But what’s been missing so far is a cogent explanation of the Detwailer cause. Here I will take on the role of the Devil’s advocate and attempt to advance Alignment’s Vision as I understand it. It is as follows:

To bring about a utopian golden age of humanity through:

1/ Very powerful centralised galactic-wide benign dictatorship, a cabal of genetically superior technocrats to rule.
2/Advance the human race through eugenics.

No more conflict and war, no more exploitation, poverty etc. and to make people better. The vision is inherently Meritocratic – they don’t believe they are superior because they are genetically manipulated per- se, rather, that the manipulation is the reason for their superiority. If anything alpha lines are held to a higher standard. If all people were like that then their lives, as measured by richness of experience and wealth, would be better.

This state of being is arbitrarily good so it is a moral imperative to bring this about no matter what the short – term (relatively speaking) costs. In other words - it doesn’t matter how many bones lay beneath the foundation of the Garden of Eden – if you build the thing you are still up by the numbers.

Keep in mind that Honor isn’t just fighting for her home. She is fighting for the status quo. It is a universe where countless billions are suffering essentially needlessly, given the level of technological developement. The Grand Alliance has no plans to change that, they just look after their wealthy patch of the galaxy and their citizens. Fair enough.

In contrast the Mesan Alignment is fighting for exactly these people and their descendants in perpetuity. Even if it has to, err, kill most of them. Albrecht Detwailer and his countless ancestors didn’t work themselves to the bone because they want a bigger palace. Nor does one labour one’s whole life for a goal generations ahead out of personal ambition. They are idealists and their idea is not at all without appeal.

The brave new world portrayed by Aldrus Huxley is considered by many to be Dystopian. Try explaining that to a starving African kid…
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by crewdude48   » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:17 am

crewdude48
Commodore

Posts: 889
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:08 am

What you describe might be close to the plan of the original Detweiler, when he founded the Alignment, however that plan has changed. The new plan is for the Star lines to become the masters and everyone else in the universe to become slaves. Personally, I would rather be a free man on earth than a slave in heaven.

The espoused goal of the Malign is to overturn the Beowulf code concerning genetic modification. Taking over the know universe is designed to facilitate that one point. There are dozens if not hundreds of ways they could have achieved that one goal with honorable means, but they chose genetic slavery, bribery, and murder from the very beginning.

Furthermore, The entire MAlign plan is based around deceit, corruption, greed, and racism. I don't think that these are good pillars upon witch to rest the creation of a "galactic-wide benign dictatorship." Now, admittedly, they are fighting against racism directed to genies, but they have replaced it in their own minds with a racism against unmodified humans.

Lastly, a fair amount of the suffering in the universe that you deride is an indirect result of the MAlign plan to take over the worlds. The corruption that they have seeded into the League is responsible for, among other things, the way that the OFS treats the planets under its "protection." If not the the MAlign's desire to control, there might me more oversight of the bureaucrats that manage the League, preventing some of their...overreach.

If you can not tell the people what you are doing in their name, you probably should not be doing it.

Moirae wrote:So the Alignment are the baddies. DW has (as usual) shown that individuals fighting under that banner can be personally as honourable and courageous as the goodies. But what’s been missing so far is a cogent explanation of the Detwailer cause. Here I will take on the role of the Devil’s advocate and attempt to advance Alignment’s Vision as I understand it. It is as follows:

To bring about a utopian golden age of humanity through:

1/ Very powerful centralised galactic-wide benign dictatorship, a cabal of genetically superior technocrats to rule.
2/Advance the human race through eugenics.

No more conflict and war, no more exploitation, poverty etc. and to make people better. The vision is inherently Meritocratic – they don’t believe they are superior because they are genetically manipulated per- se, rather, that the manipulation is the reason for their superiority. If anything alpha lines are held to a higher standard. If all people were like that then their lives, as measured by richness of experience and wealth, would be better.

This state of being is arbitrarily good so it is a moral imperative to bring this about no matter what the short – term (relatively speaking) costs. In other words - it doesn’t matter how many bones lay beneath the foundation of the Garden of Eden – if you build the thing you are still up by the numbers.

Keep in mind that Honor isn’t just fighting for her home. She is fighting for the status quo. It is a universe where countless billions are suffering essentially needlessly, given the level of technological developement. The Grand Alliance has no plans to change that, they just look after their wealthy patch of the galaxy and their citizens. Fair enough.

In contrast the Mesan Alignment is fighting for exactly these people and their descendants in perpetuity. Even if it has to, err, kill most of them. Albrecht Detwailer and his countless ancestors didn’t work themselves to the bone because they want a bigger palace. Nor does one labour one’s whole life for a goal generations ahead out of personal ambition. They are idealists and their idea is not at all without appeal.

The brave new world portrayed by Aldrus Huxley is considered by many to be Dystopian. Try explaining that to a starving African kid…
________________
I'm the Dude...you know, that or His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by wholf359   » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:04 am

wholf359
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:36 pm
Location: Central Virginia, USA

First welcome and a very interesting first topic.

Now then my main issue with the Alignment is there full belief in "The end justifies the means." This has directly LEAD to the overthrow of the original ROH, the SEM and Haven Wars which has caused millions if not billions of deaths in just 20 years alone. They have made Billions if not Trillions of "Genetic slaves" mainly as a testing to improve themselves, while condemning them to hard and short painful lives.

Now I agree what I see as the ORIGINAL plan would be worth hearing about, but not what it has turned into.
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by anwan7   » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:59 pm

anwan7
Midshipman

Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:15 am

The almost never justifies the means, the means usually determines the end.

I wish you had left a polite way to say "I completely disagree." Your insult was the closest you had to my opinion.

anwan7
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by KNick   » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:13 pm

KNick
Admiral

Posts: 2142
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:38 am
Location: Billings, MT, USA

Welcome to the forums Moirae. Your first post is definitely going to get a reaction. I hope you intend to continue to be as thought provoking in further posts. As anwar7 said, there should have been, perhaps, one more category. That of "Start running nutcase so I have a moving target to shoot at".
Last edited by KNick on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by Northstar   » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:42 pm

Northstar
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1126
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

KNick wrote:Welcome to the forums Moirae. Your first post is definitely going to get a reaction. I hope you intend to continue to be as thought provoking in further posts. As anwar7 said, there should have been, perhaps, one more category. That of "Start running nutcase so I have a moving target to shot at".


Hi KNick,

My vote goes with yours. I loathe the MAlign and all their works. They are the embodiment of most that is vile and foul in the real universe. May all their works rebound upon them. Reaping and sowing and all that. :D

Moirae,YMMV, of course. :twisted:

And welcome to the forums. :)
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by wholf359   » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:31 pm

wholf359
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:36 pm
Location: Central Virginia, USA

Looking things back over, the Alignment in one way is a lot better then our last major "Bad guy", the PRH. The PRH time and time again punished people for honest mistakes, and punished there family as well. It went so far as failing at a mission they KNEW you would fail and you and your family would be killed. Saint Just finally went to the extreme of executing people he KNEW were innocent, on the basis since action was taken it would cause resentment so better kill them anyway.

The Alignment does not seem to do that from what we have seen. There are several places where they have protected people who "got caught in the gears", or at the start openly said the chances for success were low so as long as they did not cause the failure by messing up nothing would happen. How much of this only applies to the Star lines I don't know, but it lends credence to the Alignment having at one point a noble purpose and plan.
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by waddles for desert   » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:52 pm

waddles for desert
Admiral

Posts: 2414
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:17 pm

Mesa is about vindication and vendetta.

They were free to tailor there own people to Mesa's biome.

They had the vastness of the Verge and Beyond to share their gifts with.

On the time scale they plan for, they they could have led those regions to dwarf the SL in size and surpass it in accomplishments and beneficence.

Instead, they were captivated by egotistical monomania that has utterly corrupted everything they were striving for.

Interesting question. But, I have no doubt about my opinion.
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by Moirae   » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:44 am

Moirae
Midshipman

Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:52 am

Thanks all for the warm welcome.

@crewdude48

I would rather be a free man on earth than a slave in heaven.
When was the last time you were hungry?

Seriously though no one could argue that the means through which the Allingment tries to achieve it's goals are laudabe. But so are many bad things in history brought about change for the good. The question is "is the Allingment vision better than the status quo?".

As for your last point I couldn't agree at all. The hardship in the universe is down to a lack of control and human nature - both of which give people the opportunity to inflict sufferning on each other. this is exactly what Detwailer wants to change.

Another question is why didnt they just openly pursuue their own policies on their own planet. If the Masadans could do it...?

@wholf359

Now then my main issue with the Alignment is there full belief in "The end justifies the means." This has directly LEAD to the overthrow of the original ROH, the SEM and Haven Wars which has caused millions if not billions of deaths in just 20 years alone.


I think you are actually arguing in the Alignment’s favour. How valuable is a system which is so unstable that it can be turned into a monster like PRH by a small outside force? Consider Manticore, the epitome of good governance in the H’verse. Off the cuff I can think of many instances where the government played chicken with the whole nation for their own political gain: Basilisk, beginning of 1st Hevenite War and St Just Peace to name a few. Wouldn’t Detweitler the 11th and Detweiler the 12th be better than Duke Comraty and Michael Janiver ?
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Re: In defence of…M’Alignment
Post by Moirae   » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:52 am

Moirae
Midshipman

Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:52 am

@waddles for desert

this is the only really damning endictment (apart from the, err, genocide, slavery, atrocities, war crimes) of MA - why not simply hit the road?
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