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Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C

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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by Belial666   » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:20 pm

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Not really. It would be trying to defend against machineguns by having more troops than the other side had bullets to kill them with.
OTOH, given that an SD(P) carries over 10.000 missiles and that even very tough SDs could be destroyed outright with some 500 Apollo missiles, you'd need to outnumber the enemy 20 to one to run him out of missiles.
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:23 pm

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Belial666 wrote:Not really. It would be trying to defend against machineguns by having more troops than the other side had bullets to kill them with.
OTOH, given that an SD(P) carries over 10.000 missiles and that even very tough SDs could be destroyed outright with some 500 Apollo missiles, you'd need to outnumber the enemy 20 to one to run him out of missiles.
Or maybe by having enough semi-auto rifle equipped troops to equal the rate of fire of the machine gun.

Apollo doesn't increase the range you can engage at; just the accuracy within that range. So unlike the machine-gun/bayonet comparison from kzt there's no range advantage to the 'machine-gun' (Apollo) side. And you don't need to run the Apollo units out of missiles to kill them; you can hit them from the same range they can hit you. You just get vastly fewer hits; not none.

So yes, Apollo is a lot more accurate; which means to equal its effectiveness you need to fire a lot more missiles. But not an impossible number more (partly because as some point you'll begin saturating even an Apollo equipped SD(P) formation's active defenses)

You'd lose ships, a number of ship, while chewing up the Apollo ships; but there exists a force ratio that would let a larger formation of 'conventional' SD(P)s defeat an Apollo equipped formation. (It might be 10 or 20 to one; but it exists)


If you don't have any other tech equalizers in the near term pipeline it makes sense to keep building SD(P)s as fast as possible. Attrition tactics may be painful but they can work. And unless you just want to surrender building ships significantly faster than Manticore is the your only hope (or looked at another way, the only thing that give you bargaining clout in a peace negotiation)
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by kzt   » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Apollo doesn't increase the range you can engage at; just the accuracy within that range. So unlike the machine-gun/bayonet comparison from kzt there's no range advantage to the 'machine-gun' (Apollo) side.

Really? I could have sworn that the CO 5th fleet felt that it was obviously insane that 8th fired at the range they did. Then her fleet all blowed up real good.
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by drothgery   » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:11 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Apollo doesn't increase the range you can engage at; just the accuracy within that range. So unlike the machine-gun/bayonet comparison from kzt there's no range advantage to the 'machine-gun' (Apollo) side.

Really? I could have sworn that the CO 5th fleet felt that it was obviously insane that 8th fired at the range they did. Then her fleet all blowed up real good.

It was insane because they were clearly too far away for effective fire control, and accuracy without shipboard fire control is pretty close to zero beyond counter-missile range. However, it isn't zero; if Honor had 5000 SDs instead of 50, Chin would not have thought it was insane. A waste of ammo, but not insane.
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:37 pm

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If Haven has maintained (and there is not reason to supect it has not) the defence forces in all of it's current systems, they are going to be configured to defend against RMN stikes and it will take a much larger force of SLN/FF ships to equal a "normal" RMN strike force.

For those systems how may have left Haven's control but are not yet hooked up with Manticore its more of a question. On the other hand, SEM has been shown to at least provide some defence support for places it had assisted in breaking away from Haven. Where they just hit Haven controled systems to take out Haven naval ships and wreck industry, they then left and let have deal with the resulting problems.


Sending even FF raiding forces into Haven's area of control is going to be a problem. How many places can they strike before they have to go somewhere to rearm and resupply?
Take a logistics train with them? That has not been portrayed as the FF style. Thought they may have been dealing with local pirates, most of their work has been to cow local SDF's (if any) into submission after power grabs by Transstellars and the people who would be local Governors. They are big frogs in a whole bunch of small ponds and when they take support with them is has been portrayed as troop ships and the associated transports to supply those troops and the "Adminsitrators" that will bring PEACE to planets and systems which have either suffered massive illegal civil uprisings or "asked" for OFS to come and help them.
Then there is the not so little problem that FF (and any unlucky BF) ships that go raiding into the Haven area of control are going to have to face Haven Quadrant weapons even if they are older things that have been religated to rear area system defence against RMN lighter units. The FF raiding forces are going to get torn up even if what they face are only Haven LAC forces, let alone something like a Battleship or a couple of DDs and CL's. At what point does the force get too small to make following their planned raid schedule impractical? They are going to leave a trail of damaged ships and captured crew behind them and the amount of physical damage to the FF units is only going to get worse as they keep taking on even 2nd or 3rd line Haven ships or forces. This type of raiding isn't going to let the FF units stay in systems and they will start sheading ships that are still hypercapable but have enough damage to make them mission-incapable. The cripples would most likely have to be sent limping home for repairs (which the strike force can't provide) or it will slow the force down.

This doesn't mean that Kingsford isn't going to do it, but it will cut down on the effectiveness very quickly.
As noted elcewhere, the FF commanders are going to start looking very hard at the process of being fed into the grinder with no support and leaving people out in the dark to creep home.
Besides, when a GA raid force shows up at some FF base node and, subsequent to smashing it, announces the reason they arrived was be cause the FF ship Dodo was involved in a raid on X system and the full set of orders taken off of it after caputure listed this place as it's base--by the way, you also lost ships Y, Z, A & B in doing that and here is the detailed list of the known dead and captured.
The raiding force could also mention that there is no announced state of war by the SL which sent the FF force so all the captured spacers are waiting trial for piracy.
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by solbergb   » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:33 pm

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I think a fairly reasonable way to think about how Frontier Fleet has operated, and the kinds of force levels it has maintained is to think about prewar Manticoran activities in Silesia.

Manticore was the "big dog". Ton for ton, its ships were a LOT more dangerous than the locals, and it could call on a real wall of battle if somebody really did something stupid...like kill a Manticoran warship and leave witnesses.

This is very much like how FF is described...they show up and people back down, because Battle Fleet is the ultimate threat. They also serve some useful purposes in keeping piracy down, SAR etc, but everybody knows they answer to powerful forces outside of local control (trading cartels and SKM government in the case of RMN, transtellers and the SLN hierarchy in the case of FF).

Imagine prewar Manticore trying to put together a raiding force out of its Silesian garrison targeting a Havenite system defended the way they all are now.

First, it would take a while to assemble the force.

Second, they'd have to train together to really be up to snuff (although the long transit time to Haven space would help a lot with that)

Third...they'd arrive and get blown away. A gaggle of BC, CA, CL and DDs designed around prewar principles and manned by crews that had never fought anything more challenging than a pirate squadron would be beaten by EITHER the system defense MDMs OR by the LAC garrison...and only against the LACs would they even have a prayer of returning fire.

Fourth...all that area they were patrolling, generally with inadequate force, would be unpoliced. Piracy and separatist movements in Silesia would run wild once they were pretty sure the units sent off to raid wouldn't be coming back any time soon (or ever, if the destruction was eventually reported)
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:22 pm

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Hi Imaginos1892,

To echo other posters, the RoH chose to go to war with the SL; of whom Filareta was the first to find out, as you should recall. :D

Yes, the SLN experience attacking any GA associated system in the Haven Sector is likely to be very painful at the very least, whether they run into system defense pods, LAC's, NTM hyper capable warships using 'donkey's to tow lots of pods, even a pair SDP's as some have suggested etc.

Regarding the number of RHN's SDP's:
First; apparently only the most advanced shipyards can build SD's etc, NTM the peeps certainly didn't want any potential internal competition within the PRH to have the capacity to build a fleet that could match theirs, so said construction was limited to the 3 or 4 most reliable systems, ie Haven and her 2-3 oldest daughter colonies.

Bolthole, under the complete control of SS simply continued that principle, apparently with some stored sub component assemblies initially shipped in until it was fully operational and completely self supporting, having some 400 building slips for SDP's alone; one remaining question I've asked for years being what replaced the SDP's in those empty building building slips during the war; more CLAC's, which are much cheaper and faster to build?

Second: numbers wise, 1200 was the RHN SDP production total at the beginning of AAC, which began barely two years ago (7&1/2 in our universe); the RHN lost 319 SDP's at BoMA, and had ~252 in active service after (not counting Chin's ~17 very damaged survivors of 5th Fleet) with 168 remaining U/C at Bolthole of the 800 being built there, that completed at the rate of around 5 every 6 days or a half dozen every week, the last in early February, possibly late January 1922.

Another 400 are being built in Haven and her two or three most reliable high tech industrialized daughter systems, commissioning starting this fall through the winter of 1922, for a total of ~820 plus some of those very damaged 85 (Chin's 17) and captured (Tourville's 68), assuming all are repaired for a possible 905 total, plus the 300 odd 'old' SD's remaining which supplied the crews for the last SDP's (now going into the reserve), which are certainly better than anything in the SLN.

So a pair of them in each system, possibly manned by by the local system reservists or 'system guardsmen' on rotation, if Theisman isn't expanding the navy's manpower and possibly using them as recruiting and training ships, might easily deal with any FF BC's that come calling, besides the LAC's, system defense missile pods, etc; thus possibly releasing the other hyper warships below the wall for more offensive missions, and since there would still be some excess SD's after providing the system guards for ~100 systems, convoy escorts might be another mission for them. ;)

As I've posted repeatedly, other republic systems are dedicated to building below the wall, including BC's.
So whether a pair or 'just' a half dozen systems each are concentrating on building only DD's, CL's, CA's and BC's respectively, combined they could quickly supply total annual numbers that will shock the SL and SLN leadership down to their cores, while leaving plenty more systems for LAC's, the primary question being if the republic could afford it.

Now with the Manticore WHJ tolls helping to fund them, while Bolthole retools its SDP shipyards for the next 6 month's to a year or so, that is much less of a question.

I wonder if anyone in the SL remembers Machiavelli's warning? :D

L


Imaginos1892 wrote:WHY O WHY would the ISLN start a shooting war with Haven? An enemy that's not shooting at you is infinitely preferable to one that is. Even Rajampet wasn't that stupid.

They're already effectively at war with Manticore and Grayson, and getting their asses kicked quite handily; they don't even have a cheek left for Haven to kick.

If they were that stupid, a few hundred LACs would wipe out anything smaller than SDs. Look what 96 Shrikes did to 34 battleships at Hancock in their first-ever use in combat.

And why do people keep saying Haven has 300 SDs? Or even 500? Every Haven shipyard has been in full production for 6 years, and none of them have been touched since Lovat. True, they lost 460 SDs in the Battle of Manticore, but that was almost 3 years ago, and they got some of them back with Admiral Tourville. They should have something like 800 SDs by now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have over 1200. Haven is big, and they've been building like mad ever since Theisman finished putting down the civil wars.
Apparently April is the best we can hope for when HFQ is released.
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:20 am

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Hi SolbergB,

Thanks for an excellent post.

Way back a few years, I had the temerity to point out that the peeps despite having 627 DD, 354 CL's and 210 CA's (1191 total) really didn't have enough escorts for for all the convoys they'd need for servicing over a hundred systems (later RFC revealed the peeps had almost 270), and more than 2&1/2 times what they had in 1920. Granted they only had around half the 270 systems, but still...

My suggested solution was that when PRHN ships fell below 5/8 of the RMN's, they were shifted to the Interior or Commerce Department for internal escort duties since any real warship could easily deal with ~99% of all pirates, so the peep numbers could have totaled hundreds to thousands more.

I even suggested the restricted number of convoys possible with the known numbers may have reduced the peep economy's growth rate, ie the emphasis on building SD's etc was hurting them in ways they didn't have a clue to.

Somehow it didn't come out as I intended and I got scorched by RFC, who among other things said that there weren't that many convoys because most systems produced everything they needed, etc.

This isn't to say RFC isn't gracious and flexible; at another time he agreed the 1920 figures for the IAN's BtW escorts were far too few for an empire of some 39 systems before adding their share of the SC's.

I'd be curious how many BtW escorts you think the RHN should should have for all the internal convoys they should have with their expanding economy. :D

Regarding the size of the FF, SFtS declared the Madras Sector had at least a division of heavy cruisers and the previously cited DD's and the SoF BC's, while we have no mention of CL's at all it doesn't mean there weren't any; while the RTU at least had heavy cruisers besides light cruisers and DD's.

Edited PS:
(Sheesh, it didn't come out right again!)

L


solbergb wrote:But...what is the mission of all these below-the-wall hyper capable craft for Haven?

That's what I keep coming around to.

There is a need for system defense. If the numbers I posted above are not thought of as adequate, you build and deploy more LAC and missile pods, plus fire control. You don't build more hyper capable craft. If the existing squadron of CAs or BCs aren't enough to support them maybe you reactivate some of the mothballed SDs in the reserve and pack them with missile pods.

There is a need for offense. Right now, I suspect the 300ish SD(P)s and supporting carriers are more than enough, and you can cut them loose once the system defenses are strong enough. Long term, if you think the SLN is really going to survive for an extended fight, you probably actually should be getting started on more wallers.

What there isn't a need for is to send out raiders unsupported by wallers or to defend a far flung merchant empire with below-the-wall ships that might be commerce-raided by BC's towing capital ship pods. SKM has to worry about that, but Haven really doesn't.

Actually, today, Haven probably has all the navy they'll need for the next 5-10 years. The SLN just isn't going to send sufficient forces to seriously threaten Haven, likely not even enough to punch out a minor system against Cutworm-level defenses. Kingsford talks a good game but the numbers just aren't there, and the transit time is too huge to do any kind of sustained pressure or even get a response loop fast enough to learn from early failures.

As for the textev of how much fleet Frontier Fleet must have, consider that the entire Talbot quadrant and the sector adjoining it had a massive navy of....a few DDs at their nodal headquarters.

These people kept the peace with a lot of bluffing and a little showing the flag. They aren't garrisoning with anything like the kinds of forces Havenites left in each system, much less the typical Alliance garrison.
Last edited by lyonheart on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Apparently April is the best we can hope for when HFQ is released.
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by solbergb   » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:50 pm

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The RHN light craft doctrine was always very different. Their heavier ships (CA/BC) were designed as fleet escorts, focusing on ammo capacity over throw weight and "dogfighting" capability. Their lighter craft (CL/DD) were optimized for missile throw-weight and individual combat. In fleets, they were used primarily as scouts. In offensive actions, more as commerce raiders operating solo. (heavier units pressed into service as commerce raiders tended more toward "wolf pack" attacks)

RHN system defense in the first war depended heavily on battleships as kind of a "mother ship", with fixed fortifications and LACs and not so much on garrisons of lighter hyper-capable craft.

In the second war, the emphasis shifted. Fleet escort duty was now entirely a CLAC based activity, with a handful of lighter hyper capable craft for scouting. System defense was almost entirely based on LAC+missile pods, with again a handful of hyper capable craft (usually BC-grade, sometimes a CA squadron) to replace what would have been a BB in the old days, presumably to chase off or discourage any piracy or raiding type activities outside the hyper limit. Those heavy units came from fleet escort duty that was no longer needed because of CLACs.

Now that they no longer have fleet escort duty, and stuff below CA level isn't used for much in system defense beyond providing a few scouts and couriers, they can reserve a lot of their total inventory for hyperspace patrol, and probably they only bother on lanes important enough because of certain gravitic effects that the SKM might try commerce raiding there. If you look at attempts to ambush ships in hyperspace, you need something like a squadron spread out to have a good chance of intercepting anything, and even then only if detection conditions are really bad. It isn't something your "frigate with a gun" type pirate could really attempt.

So within haven space, there isn't all that much need for anti-piracy patrols....and what need there is is fulfilled by a fairly large % of their total inventory of light ships, since not that many are needed for either system defense or fleet actions.


Or....to put it another way. Both IAN and Haven have realatively secure internal traffic lanes. Where you need escorts is in places like Silesia, or on a travel lane so important somebody might send out a squadron of BCs to try to intercept it.

In the USA, we don't have armored cars on our highways nor do we travel in convoys. In Afghanistan...we worry a lot about driving from point A to point B and do convoys, escorts etc.

Hell, even in wartime (say, occupied France in WWII) a lot of traffic just swans around without any military protection. I think the IAN and Haven space escort requirements were minimal....it just wasn't work trying to defend traffic that the enemy really couldn't shake forces free from more active duties to pursue...and local piracy is more or less nonexistent.

That's the advantage of a star empire that's geographically homogenous. Manticore has little spurs all over the place and far-flung interests and allies, and that means vulnerable things travel through lawless regions. So they need a lot more escorts.
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Re: Haven's Invictus class SD(P), Nike BC, Saganami-C
Post by Relax   » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:16 pm

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It worked for the Chinese in Korea
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