After Rising Thunder

kzt wrote:I think that was part of my plan to attempt to destroy the entire SLN in an afternoon. You want to give them plenty of time to prepare and mass forces....

Which is what Hamish did when he went after the Peep's DuQuesne base. Gave Citizen Admiral Dimitri plenty of time to call in his patrols, and gather all of his forces together in one place.

Just in time to receive the full brunt of the first intentional combat deployment of Shrikes/ Ferrets, SD(P)s and Ghost Rider.

"You have five minutes ... to surrender your command. If you have not done so, ... my units will resume fire..."

TheMonster wrote:But the Manticoran leadership knows better than to press an attack against the Solar System, because that is likely to unify the Sollies, when the plan is to fracture them into successor states too small to threaten Manticore.

JohnRoth wrote: An attack on the Mars base isn't the same as an attack on Old Earth. Going beyond Hyperion to actually attack Earth isn't a good idea, partly for the reasons suggested.

Eagleeye wrote:You know the saying "In for a penny - in for a pound"? If the Sollies are clever, they could try to spin the story, so that any attack against installations in the Solar System is regarded the same as an attack against Old Earth itself ...

E.g.: "Earlier this week the barbarian horde attempted to attack Earth itself. The valiant SLN drove them off, though significant damage was sustained to the outer system."

Bill Woods wrote:

TheMonster wrote:But the Manticoran leadership knows better than to press an attack against the Solar System, because that is likely to unify the Sollies, when the plan is to fracture them into successor states too small to threaten Manticore.

JohnRoth wrote: An attack on the Mars base isn't the same as an attack on Old Earth. Going beyond Hyperion to actually attack Earth isn't a good idea, partly for the reasons suggested.

Eagleeye wrote:You know the saying "In for a penny - in for a pound"? If the Sollies are clever, they could try to spin the story, so that any attack against installations in the Solar System is regarded the same as an attack against Old Earth itself ...

E.g.: "Earlier this week the barbarian horde attempted to attack Earth itself. The valiant SLN drove them off, though significant damage was sustained to the outer system."

Yeah, they could say that. But would it really do them any good? People do go home to their own systems, you know. Eventually the truth would out and the Mandarins credibility would take another hit.

I would think that taking out the Mars fleet base would be in accord with GA policy and would be a military target, but avoid hitting Earth.

Finally you don't win wars by allowing the bad guys to make up the rules as they go along and then cheat. Hitting the Mars fleet base demonstrates the impotence of the SLN. Avoiding an attack on Earth demonstrates restraint. The League is not the only side who can do propaganda. The GA can make sure it's side of the matter is known.

Don

n7axw wrote:Finally you don't win wars by allowing the bad guys to make up the rules as they go along and then cheat. Hitting the Mars fleet base demonstrates the impotence of the SLN. Avoiding an attack on Earth demonstrates restraint. The League is not the only side who can do propaganda. The GA can make sure it's side of the matter is known.

Don

You're right - normally. Problem in this case is - the enemy is situated at OLD EARTH or at least in the HOME SYSTEM OF MANKIND. And people ar likely to make a distinction between the Solarian League who simply happens to be situated there and the Planet Earth or the solar system. That's a game changer, or it could be, at least. You simply can't predict which point of view will be the dominant one, but you can bet, Abruzzi's minions in "Information and Education" will play the emotional card (Attack on the Homeworld! - even if only the home system got a visit) for all that it's worth. (And the MAlign would cheerfully help, too)

Earth and the Solar System can only be a target, after the dust had time to settle down - at least for the GA.

Eagleeye wrote:You're right - normally. Problem in this case is - the enemy is situated at OLD EARTH or at least in the HOME SYSTEM OF MANKIND. And people ar likely to make a distinction between the Solarian League who simply happens to be situated there and the Planet Earth or the solar system. That's a game changer, or it could be, at least. You simply can't predict which point of view will be the dominant one, but you can bet, Abruzzi's minions in "Information and Education" will play the emotional card (Attack on the Homeworld! - even if only the home system got a visit) for all that it's worth. (And the MAlign would cheerfully help, too)

Earth and the Solar System can only be a target, after the dust had time to settle down - at least for the GA.

Well, you might be able to get away with a commando-raid.. If successful you take out the target, you don't present a military threat to earth, and all those other systems will be wanting to use all available security people to guard themselves against another raid, so a lot less people will be available for offensive operations..

On the other hand, if mars is too close to earth for such a thing, there should be some SLN bases that will fit the bill.

I disagree that an attack on the Mars Fleet Base can be equated with an attack on Old Earth.

An attack on the mother world could indeed rouse those emotions. An attack on the base would only demonstrate the SLN's impotence, and by inference, inability to protect other core systems.

In the League tries to conflate the two, Manticore's propaganda can counter with its own message.

Don

n7axw wrote:I disagree that an attack on the Mars Fleet Base can be equated with an attack on Old Earth.

An attack on the mother world could indeed rouse those emotions. An attack on the base would only demonstrate the SLN's impotence, and by inference, inability to protect other core systems.

In the League tries to conflate the two, Manticore's propaganda can counter with its own message.

Don

Yes and no. An attack on Mars Fleet Base (or any other SLN installation off of Old Earth/Luna) isn't the same thing as an attack on Old Earth.
It can, however, be easily turned into an attack on Sol System. And once you've got "attack on Sol System", it's easy to go to "attack on Sol System, home of Old Earth". I expect that for the vast majority of people, "Sol" and "Old Earth" are probably fairly interchangeable, at least most of the time.

n7axw wrote:I disagree that an attack on the Mars Fleet Base can be equated with an attack on Old Earth.

An attack on the mother world could indeed rouse those emotions. An attack on the base would only demonstrate the SLN's impotence, and by inference, inability to protect other core systems.

In the League tries to conflate the two, Manticore's propaganda can counter with its own message.

Don

Yes because everyone understood and accepted that the attack on Pearl Harbor was an attack on a valid military target; and not an attack on the U.S. Mainland or any State. Oh wait; no they didn't because most people are irrational about things like that.

Or to take a slightly less charged example that the 24 Aug '40 bombing of residential parts of London was due to a navigation error in the dark and was against the specific orders of Hitler. Oh, no not in that case either...

Jonathan_S wrote:

n7axw wrote:I disagree that an attack on the Mars Fleet Base can be equated with an attack on Old Earth.

An attack on the mother world could indeed rouse those emotions. An attack on the base would only demonstrate the SLN's impotence, and by inference, inability to protect other core systems.

In the League tries to conflate the two, Manticore's propaganda can counter with its own message.

Don

Yes because everyone understood and accepted that the attack on Pearl Harbor was an attack on a valid military target; and not an attack on the U.S. Mainland or any State. Oh wait; no they didn't because most people are irrational about things like that.

Or to take a slightly less charged example that the 24 Aug '40 bombing of residential parts of London was due to a navigation error in the dark and was against the specific orders of Hitler. Oh, no not in that case either...

Actually, it'd probably be closer to somebody taking out just the UN building in New York than Pearl Harbor. At least in a technical/legalistic sense. Even if no New Yorkers were harmed, and the damage was confined strictly to the UN building - and there was no debris in the streets or anything - and nothing that the USA hadn't ceded to the UN was so much as scratched, it would still be an "attack on the UN Building in New York", or "UN building in New York Attacked", and it would get 'simplified' down to "attack on New York" or "New York Attacked". The vast majority of people wouldn't see the difference unless they were to pay close attention to the details - the only way it'd matter would be if the US and the media companies threw their weight behind making the distinction to the public, and that'd be a difficult endeavor. In the case of an attack on Mars Fleet Base, the League would not be trying to make the distinction, and most of the news media in the League probably wouldn't either, they'd be actively not making the distinction. Sure, the truth will eventually get out - but the key word is 'eventually', and 'eventually' wouldn't help the in-the-moment emotional response.

Jonathan_S wrote:

n7axw wrote:I disagree that an attack on the Mars Fleet Base can be equated with an attack on Old Earth.

An attack on the mother world could indeed rouse those emotions. An attack on the base would only demonstrate the SLN's impotence, and by inference, inability to protect other core systems.

In the League tries to conflate the two, Manticore's propaganda can counter with its own message.

Don

Yes because everyone understood and accepted that the attack on Pearl Harbor was an attack on a valid military target; and not an attack on the U.S. Mainland or any State. Oh wait; no they didn't because most people are irrational about things like that.

Or to take a slightly less charged example that the 24 Aug '40 bombing of residential parts of London was due to a navigation error in the dark and was against the specific orders of Hitler. Oh, no not in that case either...

How about Attu and Kiska? All efforts at building up the defenses of Alaska were considered "pork barrel" until the Japanese occupied two Islands in a US Territory. Suddenly airports, roads and actual bases were built at only about 10-12 times the usual costs for such projects.