David Weber on Frigates, Part 3

I know without any possible doubt that the logic train that is being followed is flawed unless there's some handwavium happening that I'm not aware of, but it's not my universe to write in. I can only do my best to point out flaws. I'm done with this topic and won't bring it up again unless the argument changes substantially.

Fine. That is your opinion, and obviously nothing I can do in the entire universe is going to change your mind. My only possible defense is that (a) I devised the technology; (b) I know the limits of the technology; (c) I know the detection limts of the systems; (d) I know the lift capability of the ships; (e) I know how much money the Admiralty has to play with, how much manpower it has, and what its strategic priorities are; (f) I've studied military and naval history for the last 45 years; and (g) I am concerned about the navy's ability to do its primary job -- which is fighting an expletive-deleted war for survival while striking an effective balance between combat power and sensor capability.

I could continue to discuss your responses on a point-by-point bais, but since you are now (apparently) positing a sufficiently inexhaustible supply of enemy starships to do unlimited in-and-outs which, obviously the Manties are going to be too stupid to recognize and do a single expletive-deleted thing to cope with, there doesn't seem to be much point.

However,let me try this one last time.

(1) The Manties have a finite supply of money, manpower, and logistics.
(2) The Manties are not and never have been interested in building single-purpose ships which are incapable of contributing to their net combat power unless it is the only possible way to get that single capability.
(3) The RMN is fully capable of performing the mission you are describing using ships which are also combat-effective and is not interested in deliberately building death traps/noncombatants simply to guarantee that no one can possibly use the ships for some other useful function.
(4) The smaller the ship the less capable it becomes, not simply in combat but also in other venues, including its inability to carry worthwhile numbers of the remote and unmanned (and hence expendable) platforms which will do the actual scouting in the high-risk zone.
(5) Ergo, with all due respect for your belief that the Admiralty must be staffed by idiots if they choose not to pursue your forward-looking, insightful policy, they are not interested in buying any significant number (defined, in this instance, as more than one) of vessels which are unarmed resource and manpower sinks for the sole purpose of performing a mission they already can and (and already are) performing.

I will add only that I resent (a) being informed that I obviously do not understand my own technology (this from someone who seems to believe that frgiates can go higher in the hyper bands than anyone else) and (b) being informed that I am resorting to "handwavium" when I have given specific supporting logic for each of the points I have made. I appreciate the interest in the books and the technology. I welcome questions and debate and, yes, on at least two occasions I can think of I have picked up on logical implications of my own tech which had not occured to me before the discussion. This is not one of those instances. Before you lecture me on the best mix for the RMN in light of its fiscal and manpower restraints and the nature of the mission it actually faces,it would be a good dea for you to know what those limitations and that mission actually are.

The Wizard hath spoken, and his words are firm.

Only a fool would challenge this.

Awaiting the next posting of said fool.

As am I. I have to admit to actually laughing out loud when I saw Duckk post this topic...got some strange looks for people to haha.

Michael Everett wrote:The Wizard hath spoken, and his words are firm.

Only a fool would challenge this.

Awaiting the next posting of said fool.

I did at first start off thinking that frigates would have utility at about 100,000 tonnes, but the key igure surely is that at 70 to 80% of costs for a Roland they are not cost effective. If it was 50% well that's another matter. They are not that effective as system pickets either, less effective in combat and seemingly, from what has been written, can not be produced any much by yards that do not normally do military construction.

Does that leave them any utility? Seemingly little in the current environment. Of course situations change. The only way that I could see them being used effectively(enabling other ships being reassigned to other roles) was to perhaps have a few built as training platforms to utilise modern weapons training.However, with the plethora of older DD's in reserve it would probably be easier to refit and refurbish these ships for these roles.I had also wondered if ships like the Nat Turner class were being built in private shipyards(like for Torch)that are not large enough to produce larger ships: if Manticore would order these as a stopgap until their normal production facilities are restored(on the something is better than nothing case)? This might be some sort of logic but my understanding is that there are many older DD's and CL's still in reserve, although these would be much more manpower intensive,which is also a problem.

As far as situations changing, roles that are not present now but could always develop are:

1) Would make good platforms for "deniable" "pirate" attacks

2) In a situation awash with "old style" pirates they would have some utility

Neither of these situations exist now.

It looks like there was a faulty assumption that Cheopsis made. This was that you would have a reasonable chance of detecting a spider if you only sent out a small force to investigate. He also assumed that you could track a spider for a long time undetected and ambush it later.

There was also the assumpion, probably false, that they would be facing large numbers of spiders. The Detweilers are too big to be available in large numbers and there are only twenty-eight Sharks.

It looks like you have to send out a fair sized force to have a reasonable chance of finding a spider. If you do that you may as well bring along the force required to kill it. And with reasonable sized forces larger ships are more cost effective.

I can see an argument for a new type of reconnaisamce drone. I would expect that less endurance would be reconnaisance of hostile systems. And I would think that there are fewer types of signals that they would be looking for. This might make it possible to build special pupose drones that are small enough to fit in missile pods or even missile tubes. Only DW knows yet whether this is possible.

My observation is that the Manties just recalled hundreds or thousands of merchantmen. Surely if you want an unarmed ship to go out and dump piles of RD drones into the great beyond an 8 megaton freighter you already own and don't have to staff (aside perhaps from one naval liason officer) is better than an 80 kton frigate you need to build new.

Just a thought.

robert132 wrote:David is probably getting just a little annoyed over this fixation on frigates.

You and he are correct, for the amount of effort, expense and numbers required, to be able to "smother" a spherical area outside a hyper limit out to a distance approaching six light months with any kind of ship just isn't doable. Hundreds if not thousands of ships would be needed in order to keep sufficient numbers on station while about 60% are in some kind of upkeep, resupply or crew rest.

For reconnisance a frigate isn't my first choice either for the same reasons you give, it isn't big enough to handle the numbers of recon drones needed and still ship any offensive armament.

If you must have a dedicated reconnisance or scout ship you will probably need something around the size and mass of a light cruiser fitted to act as tender to a number of RD's and carry sufficient computer power to process the "take" properly. The ship would also need the FTL comms capability to properly utilize the RDs and (my thought) a top of the line stealth capability for her own protection and the ability to alter the parameters of her wedge, electronic signature and transponders to appear as something other than a threat, assume the guise of a merchantman for example. And also the "legs" necessary to run like hell if found out.

Such a beast would be very expensive and not lightly placed in harm's way.

Be well sir.

Howdy Robert 132,

Quite right.

You've been a voice of reason on this subject, and I salute you for it.

Coming to this thread late, I am impressed that it has generated at least 4 posts I know of from HWKABSM (he who knows all but suggests most).

Most people would be satisfied with that, let alone the naval history and honorverse data-dumps.

Granted the MWW uses Dragon to avoid straining his wrist, but the precision of expression indicates much more editing than he usually has time for.

Either he's just finished another book [HURRAY!!], or this has taken him away from finishing another book [BOO!!], so we fans should ask ourselves if this was a profitable use of the HWKABSM's time.

As much as most forum members enjoyed this discussion, I have to wonder despite enjoying any post from the MWW, whether it was worth his time.

Whether these proposed ships were called frigates or scouts (being only defensively armed), this topic was an old discussion at the bar after AAC, and suggestions included dedicated hyperspace warships (emphasizing energy weapons) monitoring sensor buoys dropped in hyper to extend the warning time to the system in question.
Despite the increased coverage, the vast effort wasn't considered worth it.

HH thought little of Horrible Hemphill's cavalier dismissal of the high LAC casualties she envisioned; so I imagine HH's consideration regarding building ships one intended to lose in job lots simply performing its duty, and the ship's crews attitude toward their ship, their assigned duty, and their job performance.
If you were so weak and expendable, would you want to find such formidable prey?

Since thousands are an obvious waste, but around 20 is a significant improvement in detection and localization for a sphere two light month's in diameter (MoH textev), the level of exasperation the HWKABSM might feel when the traditional preference of the RMN is questioned.

This is way too long, and I, falling asleep.

Bye,
L

I think the point here is that any rapid reaction recon ships to hunt spider drive ships are going to need a hyperdrive, military grade impellers, plenty of recon drones, the FTL comm to monitor the take from those recon drones, and battle management capability to interpret the data. At this point you already have a ship that is as expensive as a DD and probably as large. Why not make it a DD? In fact you might need something CL sized.

This is of course assuming that your recon ships are backed up by other ships or system defense pods to do the actual killing with very long range Apollo.

namelessfly wrote:I think the point here is that any rapid reaction recon ships to hunt spider drive ships are going to need a hyperdrive, military grade impellers, plenty of recon drones, the FTL comm to monitor the take from those recon drones, and battle management capability to interpret the data. At this point you already have a ship that is as expensive as a DD and probably as large. Why not make it a DD? In fact you might need something CL sized.

This is of course assuming that your recon ships are backed up by other ships or system defense pods to do the actual killing with very long range Apollo.

I think that DW is thinking of an LAC swarm killing the spider drive ships. There is a question over how effective missile homing systems will be against spider drive ships. There is no question about how effective LAC grasers will be.

If the Mantys and co can attached 15+ pods to Roland class Hulls, than they can attach many more RD on it.

Why waste resource on a dedicated Drone Carrier, with no Battle value?