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Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington

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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by tlb   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:31 pm

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penny wrote:Moreover, since Honor didn't come forth and admit the attempted rape, after a time, Young could have challenged Honor for beating his ass. Having his ass beat by a subordinate "base born bitch" made him the laughing stock in his social circles. After a time, it would have been difficult for Honor to walk back her intransigence. At that point, it would have made the accusation seem self-serving.

Quick questions: How was Pavel going to explain that this happened in the shower while Honor was naked? Doesn't this just get him kicked out of the Academy, as if she had come forward in the first place?

Intransigence? Being unwilling to compromise about being attacked while taking a shower?
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by tlb   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:08 pm

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penny wrote:At any rate, and I say it again. It seems to me that being Chief of Missions should shield Houseman from and physical abuse from any officer of the navy. It should also have shielded said officer’s honor from being called into question from anyone but the navy. Reason being, if that rule isn't the metric, then any officer's actions could result in his honor being called into question because of the handling of his squad, picket or fleet.

Randy Steilman should potentially have been challenged. Where does it end?

Ordinarily you would be correct about Houseman. Where Houseman deviated was in shouting, threatening and being generally abusive to both Honor and Ambassador Langtry in a situation that was outside of his authority as head of the treaty mission. From HotQ:
Chapter 18 wrote:Houseman’s head jerked back up at the bottomless, icy contempt in that soft soprano voice. He recoiled for just a second, then slammed a fist on the conference table and yanked himself erect.
I’ve warned you for the last time, Captain! You watch your tongue when you speak to me, or I’ll have you broken! My concern is solely for my responsibilities—responsibilities I recognize, even if you don’t—as custodian of Her Majesty’s interests in Yeltsin!
“I was under the impression we had an ambassador to look after Her Majesty’s interests,” Honor shot back, and Langtry stepped closer to her.
“So we do, Captain.” His voice was cold, and he looked much less like an ambassador and much more like a colonel as he glared at Houseman. “Mr. Houseman may represent Her Majesty’s Government for purposes of Admiral Courvosier’s mission here, but I represent Her Majesty’s continuing interests.”
“Do you feel I should use my squadron to evacuate Manticoran subjects from the line of fire, Sir?” Honor asked, never taking her eyes from Houseman’s, and the economist’s face contorted with rage as Langtry answered.
“I do not, Captain. Obviously it would be wise to evacuate as many dependents and noncombatants as possible aboard the freighters still available, but in my opinion your squadron will be best employed protecting Grayson.
If you wish, I’ll put that in writing.”
Damn you!” Houseman shouted. “Don’t you split legal hairs with me, Langtry! If I have to, I’ll have you removed from Foreign Office service at the same time I have her court-martialed!
“You’re welcome to try.” Langtry snorted contemptuously.
Houseman swelled with fury, and the corner of Honor’s mouth twitched as her own rage raced to meet his. After all his cultured contempt for the military, all his smug assumption of his own superior place in the scheme of things, all he could think of now was to order that same despised military to save his precious skin! The polished, sophisticated surface had cracked, and behind it was an ugly, personal cowardice Honor was supremely ill-equipped to understand, much less sympathize with.
He gathered himself to lash back at Langtry, and she felt the Grayson officer standing mutely to one side. It shamed her to know what he was seeing and hearing, and under all her shame and anger was the raw, bleeding loss of the Admiral’s death and her own responsibility for it. This man—this worm—was not going to throw away everything the Admiral had worked and, yes, died for!
She leaned across the table towards him, meeting his eyes from less than a meter away, and her voice cut across the beginning of his next outburst like a scalpel.
“Shut your cowardly mouth, Mr. Houseman.” The cold words were precisely, almost calmly, enunciated, and he recoiled from them. His face went scarlet, then white and contorted with outrage, but she continued with that same, icy precision that made each word a flaying knife. “You disgust me. Sir Anthony is entirely correct, and you know it—you just won’t admit it because you don’t have the guts to face it.”
I’ll have your commission!” Houseman gobbled. “I have friends in high places, and I’ll—"
Honor slapped him.

As for Randy Steilman, he was challenged and beaten by Aubrey Wanderman in chapter 34 of Honor Among Enemies. I hope you did not think there could be a duel between Steilman and an officer; that is out of the question. Duels have to be between people of approximately equal status; nobody (except another monarch) has the status to challenge the Queen and an officer cannot be challenged by an NCO and and NCO cannot be challenged by any enlisted. Conversely the challenge might be possible the other direction, but why bother when there are other ways to assert power and status.
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by penny   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:42 pm

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:Moreover, since Honor didn't come forth and admit the attempted rape, after a time, Young could have challenged Honor for beating his ass. Having his ass beat by a subordinate "base born bitch" made him the laughing stock in his social circles. After a time, it would have been difficult for Honor to walk back her intransigence. At that point, it would have made the accusation seem self-serving.

Quick questions: How was Pavel going to explain that this happened in the shower while Honor was naked? Doesn't this just get him kicked out of the Academy, as if she had come forward in the first place?

Intransigence? Being unwilling to compromise about being attacked while taking a shower?

Huh? Shower? Naked? I don't recall any of that! I don't recall an attempted rape. There were no witnesses. Do you really think a member of the House of Lords would be sexually attracted to a baseborn b**** as ugly as Harrington? Slander I say! Slander! She pursued Young, he rejected her and then she snapped.

Obviously Honor didn't think she would have a case or be believed either.

Uh, the intransigence I speak of was Honor's insane resistance against everyone trying to get her to come forth. Some things I really think should be obvious in my posts. When I expand my posts they get too long. When I do not, even the obvious gets missed.
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by tlb   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:22 pm

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penny wrote:Moreover, since Honor didn't come forth and admit the attempted rape, after a time, Young could have challenged Honor for beating his ass. Having his ass beat by a subordinate "base born bitch" made him the laughing stock in his social circles. After a time, it would have been difficult for Honor to walk back her intransigence. At that point, it would have made the accusation seem self-serving.

tlb wrote:How was Pavel going to explain that this happened in the shower while Honor was naked?

penny wrote:Huh? Shower? Naked? I don't recall any of that! I don't recall an attempted rape. There were no witnesses. Do you really think a member of the House of Lords would be sexually attracted to a baseborn b**** as ugly as Harrington? Slander I say! Slander! She pursued Young, he rejected her and then she snapped.

Obviously Honor didn't think she would have a case or be believed either.

The problem is that waiting means he does not have a case. If he did not complain immediately, then it is just he said versus she said; even with his bruises. From OBS:
Chapter 6 wrote:Memories of the Academy dominated them, especially of the terrible scene in the commandant's office as Mr. Midshipman Lord Young, broken ribs and collarbone still immobilized, split lips still puffed and distended, one blackened eye swollen almost shut, was required to apologize to Ms. Midshipman Harrington for his "inappropriate language and actions" before the official reprimand for "conduct unbecoming" went into his file.

--- skip ---

Besides, where was her proof? They'd been alone—Young had seen to that!—and she'd been so shaken she'd fled back to her dorm room instead of reporting it instantly. By the time anyone else knew a thing about it, his cronies had dragged him off to the infirmary with some story about "falling down the stairs" on his way to the gym.


PS: He is a not a member of the House of Lords, that would be his father, so I am unsure why there is a "Lord" stuck into his name in the quote. At most he has a cadet seat, which is not the same thing.
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by penny   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:50 pm

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:Moreover, since Honor didn't come forth and admit the attempted rape, after a time, Young could have challenged Honor for beating his ass. Having his ass beat by a subordinate "base born bitch" made him the laughing stock in his social circles. After a time, it would have been difficult for Honor to walk back her intransigence. At that point, it would have made the accusation seem self-serving.

tlb wrote:How was Pavel going to explain that this happened in the shower while Honor was naked?

penny wrote:Huh? Shower? Naked? I don't recall any of that! I don't recall an attempted rape. There were no witnesses. Do you really think a member of the House of Lords would be sexually attracted to a baseborn b**** as ugly as Harrington? Slander I say! Slander! She pursued Young, he rejected her and then she snapped.

Obviously Honor didn't think she would have a case or be believed either.

The problem is that waiting means he does not have a case. If he did not complain immediately, then it is just he said versus she said; even with his bruises. From OBS:
Chapter 6 wrote:Memories of the Academy dominated them, especially of the terrible scene in the commandant's office as Mr. Midshipman Lord Young, broken ribs and collarbone still immobilized, split lips still puffed and distended, one blackened eye swollen almost shut, was required to apologize to Ms. Midshipman Harrington for his "inappropriate language and actions" before the official reprimand for "conduct unbecoming" went into his file.

--- skip ---

Besides, where was her proof? They'd been alone—Young had seen to that!—and she'd been so shaken she'd fled back to her dorm room instead of reporting it instantly. By the time anyone else knew a thing about it, his cronies had dragged him off to the infirmary with some story about "falling down the stairs" on his way to the gym.


PS: He is a not a member of the House of Lords, that would be his father, so I am unsure why there is a "Lord" stuck into his name in the quote. At most he has a cadet seat, which is not the same thing.

IOW, it is his father who is a Lord. Or, rather, 'do you know who my father is?' Which does not help Honor's case. Pavel Young was not baseborn.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up??? Manticore's government is a dead ringer for the British government. Mostly. But there are some differences. I thought Pavel Young was a Lord because Lord Pavel Young is his full name. So, I thought at the very least he became a Lord through inheritance. Hence, he is not baseborn. He inherited the title. I assumed inheritance is still in effect on Manticore. Which means he was born into the House of Lords. Which explains his remarks about Honor's baseborn status, I thought.

membership of the Lords is not generally acquired by election. Most members are appointed for life, on either a political or non-political basis.[10][11] Hereditary membership was abolished in 1999, apart from 92 excepted hereditary peers: 90 elected through internal by-elections, plus the Earl Marshal and Lord Great Chamberlain as members ex officio. No members directly inherit their seats any longer.
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by tlb   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:55 pm

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penny wrote:IOW, it is his father who is a Lord. Or, rather, 'do you know who my father is?' Which does not help Honor's case. Pavel Young was not baseborn.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up??? Manticore's government is a dead ringer for the British government. Mostly. But there are some differences. I thought Pavel Young was a Lord because Lord Pavel Young is his full name. So, I thought at the very least he became a Lord through inheritance. Hence, he is not baseborn. He inherited the title. I assumed inheritance is still in effect on Manticore.

He did inherit that title; but NOT until Field of Dishonor, when his father died at the end of the court martial. So he became a Lord and was thrown out of the Navy on the same day.
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by penny   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:59 pm

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:IOW, it is his father who is a Lord. Or, rather, 'do you know who my father is?' Which does not help Honor's case. Pavel Young was not baseborn.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up??? Manticore's government is a dead ringer for the British government. Mostly. But there are some differences. I thought Pavel Young was a Lord because Lord Pavel Young is his full name. So, I thought at the very least he became a Lord through inheritance. Hence, he is not baseborn. He inherited the title. I assumed inheritance is still in effect on Manticore.

He did inherit that title; but NOT until Field of Dishonor, when his father died at the end of the court martial. So he became a Lord and was thrown out of the Navy on the same day.

Officially, yes. But he was always going to inherit. I always reasoned it as offspring of Lords are automatically, in a sense "in the line of lordly succession." shrug
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by tlb   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:14 pm

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tlb wrote:He did inherit that title; but NOT until Field of Dishonor, when his father died at the end of the court martial. So he became a Lord and was thrown out of the Navy on the same day.

penny wrote:Officially, yes. But he was always going to inherit. I always reasoned it as offspring of Lords are automatically, in a sense "in the line of lordly succession." shrug

It is true that he is the heir apparent, so he was always going to inherit provided he outlived his father. That cannot be assured when he is in the Navy and the shooting starts. But being a member of the House of Lords is a voting position and he would not be allowed to vote until his father died and he gained the title.
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by penny   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:28 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:He did inherit that title; but NOT until Field of Dishonor, when his father died at the end of the court martial. So he became a Lord and was thrown out of the Navy on the same day.

penny wrote:Officially, yes. But he was always going to inherit. I always reasoned it as offspring of Lords are automatically, in a sense "in the line of lordly succession." shrug

It is true that he is the heir apparent, so he was always going to inherit provided he outlived his father. That cannot be assured when he is in the Navy and the shooting starts. But being a member of the House of Lords is a voting position and he would not be allowed to vote until his father died and he gained the title.

Well, I guess I am wrong again about the inner workings of the British government.
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Re: Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington
Post by tlb   » Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:12 pm

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penny wrote:Well, I guess I am wrong again about the inner workings of the British government.
Manticoran government?
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