Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:It is wrong guys. Plain old wrong. Not to mention, illegal. The principle of civilian control of the military places ultimate authority over U.S. armed services in the hands of civilian leadership, with civilian responsibility and control of the military balanced between the executive and legislative branches of the government. —internet

The principle of civilian control has nothing to do with the situation. It does not mean that every soldier has to defer to every civilian, instead it means that the chain of command is headed by a civilian: the Secretary of Defense and the President in the US and the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Queen in Manticore. The legislature is mainly involved through budgeting; but just as the House of Lords could put Honor on half-pay, the US Congress could recently block promotions.

As everyone is saying both of them were wrong and both of them were punished. Afterward the Queen rewarded Honor, which somewhat mitigated her punishment.

And actually, the highest civilian in system was the ambassador, he's the queens and goverments permanent proxy. Housemans responsibility was limited to the negotiations.

penny wrote:It is wrong guys. Plain old wrong. Not to mention, illegal. The principle of civilian control of the military places ultimate authority over U.S. armed services in the hands of civilian leadership, with civilian responsibility and control of the military balanced between the executive and legislative branches of the government. —internet

tlb wrote:The principle of civilian control has nothing to do with the situation. It does not mean that every soldier has to defer to every civilian, instead it means that the chain of command is headed by a civilian: the Secretary of Defense and the President in the US and the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Queen in Manticore. The legislature is mainly involved through budgeting; but just as the House of Lords could put Honor on half-pay, the US Congress could recently block promotions.

As everyone is saying both of them were wrong and both of them were punished. Afterward the Queen rewarded Honor, which somewhat mitigated her punishment.

markusschaber wrote:And actually, the highest civilian in system was the ambassador, he's the queens and goverments permanent proxy. Housemans responsibility was limited to the negotiations.

However the Ambassador is not in Honor's chain of command. The Ambassador might be able to issue orders to Houseman as the highest ranking Foreign Service official in the system after the Admiral's death, but could only issue requests to Honor.

As an example, in War of Honor see how unsuccessful Dame Melina Makris was at ordering around the captain of Harvest Joy after the transit to Lynx in the Talbott Cluster.

tlb wrote:However the Ambassador is not in Honor's chain of command. The Ambassador might be able to issue orders to Houseman as the highest ranking Foreign Service official in the system after the Admiral's death, but could only issue requests to Honor.

Yep. Though if a captain doesn't agree with reasonable requests from an Ambassador I'd expect some pointed questions would be asked back at home.

Questions that might lead to deleterious effects on said captain's career should they not have pretty compelling reasons for not agreeing.

tlb wrote:However the Ambassador is not in Honor's chain of command. The Ambassador might be able to issue orders to Houseman as the highest ranking Foreign Service official in the system after the Admiral's death, but could only issue requests to Honor.

Jonathan_S wrote:Yep. Though if a captain doesn't agree with reasonable requests from an Ambassador I'd expect some pointed questions would be asked back at home.

Questions that might lead to deleterious effects on said captain's career should they not have pretty compelling reasons for not agreeing.

Of course, Honor would need reasons that her bosses would consider sufficient. But none of this is applicable to Houseman's demands.

Jonathan_S wrote:But the military escort for the freighters full of material that would go to Grayson should they agree to the alliance was not under the authority of the diplomatic mission. Honor had orders to cooperate with them as appropriate -- but her primary mission was to safeguard the freighters and to show the flag. (She may well have been more likely to go along with requests from her mentor and former superior, Courvosier, than those from Houseman -- but in neither case was the head of the diplomatic mission in her chain of command. Though, as I said, she was expected and ordered to cooperate with and assist them as much as was reasonable)

But Admiral Courvoisier, being an active member of the RMN, was the senior office in the AO, so he did actually have the authority to order Honor around. She did have her orders to proceed to Casca, so while his orders didn't conflict with her orders from the Admiralty, she'd have to obey him.

That's not true of Houseman. After Courvoisier was killed, Honor was the senior military officer in the system.

Jonathan_S wrote:But the military escort for the freighters full of material that would go to Grayson should they agree to the alliance was not under the authority of the diplomatic mission. Honor had orders to cooperate with them as appropriate -- but her primary mission was to safeguard the freighters and to show the flag. (She may well have been more likely to go along with requests from her mentor and former superior, Courvosier, than those from Houseman -- but in neither case was the head of the diplomatic mission in her chain of command. Though, as I said, she was expected and ordered to cooperate with and assist them as much as was reasonable)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But Admiral Courvoisier, being an active member of the RMN, was the senior office in the AO, so he did actually have the authority to order Honor around. She did have her orders to proceed to Casca, so while his orders didn't conflict with her orders from the Admiralty, she'd have to obey him.

That's not true of Houseman. After Courvoisier was killed, Honor was the senior military officer in the system.

However Admiral Couvosier was not on active duty for this mission, so I think Jonathan_S is more correct. From HotQ:

Chapter 1 wrote:His smile was a bit crooked as he looked down at the gold rings on his own space-black sleeve. “You know, I’m really going to hate giving up the uniform,” he sighed.
“It’s only temporary, Sir. They’re not going to leave you on the beach for long. In fact,” Honor frowned, “I still don’t understand why the Foreign Office wanted you in the first place.”
“Oh?” He cocked his head and his eyes glinted at her. “Are you saying an old crock like me can’t be trusted with a diplomatic mission?”

tlb wrote:However Admiral Couvosier was not on active duty for this mission, so I think Jonathan_S is more correct. From HotQ:

Chapter 1 wrote:His smile was a bit crooked as he looked down at the gold rings on his own space-black sleeve. “You know, I’m really going to hate giving up the uniform,” he sighed.
“It’s only temporary, Sir. They’re not going to leave you on the beach for long. In fact,” Honor frowned, “I still don’t understand why the Foreign Office wanted you in the first place.”
“Oh?” He cocked his head and his eyes glinted at her. “Are you saying an old crock like me can’t be trusted with a diplomatic mission?”

Thanks, I didn't remember that detail.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But the military escort for the freighters full of material that would go to Grayson should they agree to the alliance was not under the authority of the diplomatic mission. Honor had orders to cooperate with them as appropriate -- but her primary mission was to safeguard the freighters and to show the flag. (She may well have been more likely to go along with requests from her mentor and former superior, Courvosier, than those from Houseman -- but in neither case was the head of the diplomatic mission in her chain of command. Though, as I said, she was expected and ordered to cooperate with and assist them as much as was reasonable)

But Admiral Courvoisier, being an active member of the RMN, was the senior office in the AO, so he did actually have the authority to order Honor around. She did have her orders to proceed to Casca, so while his orders didn't conflict with her orders from the Admiralty, she'd have to obey him.

That's not true of Houseman. After Courvoisier was killed, Honor was the senior military officer in the system.

I see tlb already brought this up while I was researching and drafting this. But since I'm now less sure than he was I'll go ahead and post my thoughts:


Well he was, in Honor's words "on the beach" [HotQ], and assigned to the Foreign Office. I'm not sure if that means he was simply assigned TDY there, or if he was placed on half-pay and then took a temporary gig with the FO. If it was the later then he wouldn't currently have been an active member of the RMN -- not in terms of being able to issue orders to its ship captains.

And even if he was active he wasn't assigned to command Grayson station -- so he wouldn't have the authority of a station CO to override the orders of RMN units passing through their area of operations. I don't think a random Admiral not assigned as a station CO, and not in the captains direct chain of command, can actually override their ship's orders.
(Though, better have a darned good reason before you refuse to go along with what any Admiral wants)


However, whether or not Courvosier could legally give Honor orders during those events, it's basically inconceivable that she wouldn't have gone along with whatever he wanted her ships to do.

I actually appreciate everybody's argument. A lot of very good points have been raised about dueling and also about this case of Houseman vs Harrington. And I think I have to limit any of my usual "buts." Brilliant posts!

However, I must raise a few concerns regarding both topics. My first concerns are rather personal and it concerns dueling. It bothered me from the beginning of my very first read. I agree with those of you who point out that my objections to dueling is rooted in my ignorance of laws and traditions of a completely different society, era, star system, government and way of life. I agree with that assessment, and what's more, I do not think that that can be argued. In and of itself.

The issues that bother me so much probably stem from my unfair assessment that dueling is simply something that appears to be an archaic throwback to justice, and that it gives me the impression of being barbaric. To be honest with the forum and simultaneously remain true to myself, I personally view dueling as being downright barbaric.

I always thought that the SL's label of Neobarb is born out of this same archaic tradition.

True or not. If that is an accurate assessment of the SL's thoughts, then I agree with their assessment as far as that is concerned. I am similarly as biased as the SL in that respect.

Continuing along that line of thought, I was, and remain, shocked that the MBS and its Queen, would allow such an archaic and dangerous tradition to continue! The danger to the Star Kingdom, now Star Empire, is that it allows a Manticoran citizen to legally execute anyone he so desires. Denver Summervale was a professional duelist. Pavel Young hired him. But what if Summervale or either another far more accomplished professional duelist decides to systematically and legally eliminate certain members of the government and navy for his own purposes or political party's benefit?

An important consideration being overlooked is that Honor could have been killed. Legally. That would have been a huge loss to the war effort; then and in the future. Moreover, what if certain members of political parties are goaded into a duel and begin to die? Same question for key officers of the navy. White Haven could not have defeated Summervale. This archaic law and tradition could “disappear” the Star Kingdom’s best officers faster than Saint Just's regime “disappeared” its officers.

My second concern is the question of who is potentially on the list of being subject to this archaic barbaric concept of honor? The Prime Minister? The Queen? Can any 'yahoo' simply go on the faxes and goad anyone into a duel? Do words hurt? Do words kill? Honor goaded Summervale into a duel by slapping him. If physical abuse is the only way to goad someone into a duel, then nobody is going to get close enough to goad the Queen. It is obvious that physical abuse is not the only method of impugning someones honor. As a matter of fact, who actually impugned Honor's honor? Summervale or Pavel Young? It was simply a job as far as Summervale was concerned. Dueling was his profession.

But I digress. Is the act of verbally impugning someones honor publically, enough to initiate the need for the impugned to challenge, lest risk to their honor? In which case, one could publically announce appalling “unspeakables” about the Queen. Is the Queen immune from losing her honor; from having to issue a challenge? Regardless of the fact that I think the Queen has some surprises in store for a potential duelist with her weapon of choice. Her sword!

Honor's honor was impugned on Grayson when she was called a harlot in public. Can someone call Beth, the Queen, a whore and goad Beth into challenging?

If you impugn a person's honor, it means you are claiming that that person is not as respectable as the community at large regards them, implying that they have done something to debase themselves in the eyes of the public.
—internet

A post regarding the case of Houseman vs Honor will shortly follow.

To be clear, there were legal limits on who could be challenged to a duel. In the Honorverse duels between members of the armed forces, most likely require approval of higher authority. It is mentioned that White Haven's attempt to stop Honor from fighting Pavel Young would have been legal if he were still in the Navy.

In the book Mr. Midshipman Hornblower, the protagonist has a duel with another midshipman. When he learns that a commanding officer has interfered with the loading of the guns to render the duel nonlethal, he was about to challenge that officer whereupon he was informed that challenging a superior officer was a capital offense. I would not be surprised to learn that this prohibition was also in the Honorverse.

While I am sure the Queen could challenge anyone; I would expect that if someone tried to challenge the Queen, they would be charged with a capital crime similar to treason.