Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Thanks for that. To be honest, I always thought Pavel actually was a Lord because of his incessant bragging and because everyone seemed to show him deference. But I could have been wrong as I can hardly claim to be anywhere near an expert on English government. I can hardly pass for being average. And when it is explained to me it oftentimes confuses me more. I can understand the most convoluted legal documents easier than the British government. I simply love the English though! Been in love with many an English girl.

As the heir apparent, Pavel Young would have acted like a Lord; no matter what his actual title was.

Please stop saying this is English Government, because it does NOT conform to the House of Lords in Great Britain; for one thing the British system always included Bishops from the Church of England in their House of Lords. Also I can find no mention of cadet seats such as occur in the House of Lords in Manticore. Finally, as you pointed out, the British system is tending to phase out inherited seats.

Yes, the author took inspiration from the British system; but more closely from the time of the Napoleonic Wars (Hornblower in Space). But even so, there are differences and it is just confusing to mislabel things.

This doesn't appear to be true for Manticore, but British Dukes (not Royal Dukes), Marquesses, and Earls all have lesser titles and the heirs apparent are given those lesser titles as a courtesy (they did not have seats in the House of Lords). Younger brothers and sisters were given the courtesy tile of Lord and Lady respectively. Sometimes there is a courtesy title for the heir apparent of the heir. For example, the son of the current Duke of Marlborough is referred to as the Marquess of Blandford (BTW, when his grandfather was alive, he was the Earl of Sunderland, while his father was the Marquess of Blandford).

penny wrote:Huh? Shower? Naked? I don't recall any of that! I don't recall an attempted rape. There were no witnesses. Do you really think a member of the House of Lords would be sexually attracted to a baseborn b**** as ugly as Harrington? Slander I say! Slander! She pursued Young, he rejected her and then she snapped.

Actually, officially she did not beat him because neither party accused the other. Officially, he fell down the stairs. Three times.

He had to apologise to her because he had slandered her in public, after she had rejected his advances. That was official because there were witnesses. It's what he did after that and what she did to him as a response that was never in the official record.

penny wrote:Huh? Shower? Naked? I don't recall any of that! I don't recall an attempted rape. There were no witnesses. Do you really think a member of the House of Lords would be sexually attracted to a baseborn b**** as ugly as Harrington? Slander I say! Slander! She pursued Young, he rejected her and then she snapped.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Actually, officially she did not beat him because neither party accused the other. Officially, he fell down the stairs. Three times.

He had to apologise to her because he had slandered her in public, after she had rejected his advances. That was official because there were witnesses. It's what he did after that and what she did to him as a response that was never in the official record.

And he cannot turn around and accuse her afterward, because the academies have honor codes that forbid lying and cheating. On the one hand her story would be more believable because he already has an official reprimand for "conduct unbecoming" and on the other hand he and his friends swore that his injuries were the result of falling down stairs. So changing the story would require an admission that he and his friends lied and thus could get them kicked out.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Huh? Shower? Naked? I don't recall any of that! I don't recall an attempted rape. There were no witnesses. Do you really think a member of the House of Lords would be sexually attracted to a baseborn b**** as ugly as Harrington? Slander I say! Slander! She pursued Young, he rejected her and then she snapped.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Actually, officially she did not beat him because neither party accused the other. Officially, he fell down the stairs. Three times.

He had to apologise to her because he had slandered her in public, after she had rejected his advances. That was official because there were witnesses. It's what he did after that and what she did to him as a response that was never in the official record.

And he cannot turn around and accuse her afterward, because the academies have honor codes that forbid lying and cheating. On the one hand her story would be more believable because he already has an official reprimand for "conduct unbecoming" and on the other hand he and his friends swore that his injuries were the result of falling down stairs. So changing the story would require an admission that he and his friends lied and thus could get them kicked out.

IINM, the reprimand on his record would be inadmissible in court for several reasons. No, his friends were not there. They were not witnesses to the event. They only knew what Young told them. Therefore they could not be charged for lying, Young lied to them. But they certainly saw the injuries, and I always wondered whether quick heal is an over the counter drug. If not, then a doctor and possibly others were witnesses as well to the injuries.

I think Young would have an understandable excuse of why he lied. He was embarrassed of having his ass kicked by a woman. A lofty born Lord having his ass beaten by a base born bitch of a Commoner? Come on! The ridicule going on behind his back in the locker room is proof enough of that. And he might have been terrified of the crazy bitch or any prospect of having to challenge her to retain his honor.

And do consider, she had no injuries and Young was a man. A bare-naked woman who a man tried to physically rape, premeditatedly, had no injuries? Is that because she lured him into the locker room after he rejected her advances, thus was able to get in the first strike?

penny wrote:IINM, the reprimand on his record would be inadmissible in court for several reasons. No, his friends were not there. They were not witnesses to the event. They only knew what Young told them. Therefore they could not be charged for lying, Young lied to them. But they certainly saw the injuries, and I always wondered whether quick heal is an over the counter drug. If not, then a doctor and possibly others were witnesses as well to the injuries.

I think Young would have an understandable excuse of why he lied. He was embarrassed of having his ass kicked by a woman. A lofty born Lord having his ass beaten by a base born bitch of a Commoner? Come on! The ridicule going on behind his back in the locker room is proof enough of that. And he might have been terrified of the crazy bitch or any prospect of having to challenge her to retain his honor.

And do consider, she had no injuries and Young was a man. A bare-naked woman who a man tried to physically rape, premeditatedly, had no injuries? Is that because she lured him into the locker room after he rejected her advances, thus was able to get in the first strike?

On what grounds do you think the reprimand would be inadmissible (since it shows he has form; as the English might say), if he is claiming she pursued him and was rejected? His friends lied IF they claimed they were with him when he fell and received the injuries. In either case Pavel is still admitting to lying. Just being witness to the injuries means nothing; they were very evident when he received his official reprimand. It would be laughed out of court, if he tried to change his story to her beating him up because she was rejected. He would have been screaming for justice, instead of pretending that he fell down stairs, if someone of lower standing used force against him.

There is NO excuse for lying under the Honor Code, particularly in a society where honor is regarded so strongly that duels are fought over it.

All of her martial arts instructors could testify that he would only have a chance if he struck (or shot) her from behind.

penny wrote:IINM, the reprimand on his record would be inadmissible in court for several reasons. No, his friends were not there. They were not witnesses to the event. They only knew what Young told them. Therefore they could not be charged for lying, Young lied to them. But they certainly saw the injuries, and I always wondered whether quick heal is an over the counter drug. If not, then a doctor and possibly others were witnesses as well to the injuries.

Actually we don't know precisely what Young said to his cronies, or the exact story they gave to (presumably) the infirmary folks.

We know that they weren't in the showers where Pavel actually got injured - but the text is vague enough that it could cover them lying and claiming to have been eye witnesses to his purported fall down the stairs.

On Basilisk Station wrote:By the time anyone else knew a thing about it, his cronies had dragged him off to the infirmary with some story about "falling down the stairs" on his way to the gym.

It isn't clear from that whether their story was actually "Pavel told us he fell down the stairs", in which case you're right and they couldn't be charged for lying, or their story was "we was right there when he tripped and crashed down the stairs", which would have been a stronger alibi -- but if disproved would put them on the hook for knowingly lying about the situation.


However I think the conduct unbecoming charge - or rather the facts that led to it - could have been used against Pavel should the rape allegations have later surfaced.
His conduct and the charge arising from it wasn't unrelated bad/illegal behavior (which wouldn't be usable), it wasn't even merely evidence of a pattern of a given bad behavior (which is sometimes allowed), it was arguably a directly precipitating incident for the later assault.
Pavel expressed sexual interest in Honor, was publicly humiliated by her rejection, and verbally lashed out with sexually harassing speech and abusive conduct. That would absolutely be relevant to the prosecution's case that he followed up his public attacks with a more secluded attempt at sexual assault

tlb wrote:There is NO excuse for lying under the Honor Code, particularly in a society where honor is regarded so strongly that duels are fought over it.

Yep. If embarrassed he could have refused to say what happened. He'd likely get some light punishment for that refusal but I don't think refusing to state what happened would be an Honor Code violation - certainly it isn't lying.

But telling a lie to hide embarrassment - however real and well deserved that embarrassment is - is absolutely a violation and easily could get a student expelled.



(Hell, lying to cover embarrassment is a moral failing for an officer, and would raise concern that in the service that person might lie about events to cover their own ass or prevent themselves from looking bad. And that lying might put others at risk or threaten the mission -- say if they were embarrassed about being tricked into revealing mission plans so someone in a dockside bar)

On Basilisk Station wrote:By the time anyone else knew a thing about it, his cronies had dragged him off to the infirmary with some story about "falling down the stairs" on his way to the gym.

Jonathan_S wrote:It isn't clear from that whether their story was actually "Pavel told us he fell down the stairs", in which case you're right and they couldn't be charged for lying, or their story was "we was right there when he tripped and crashed down the stairs", which would have been a stronger alibi -- but if disproved would put them on the hook for knowingly lying about the situation.

However even if all they did was state "Yes, that is what happened", then they were contributing to a lie by lying themselves. No matter who came up with the original lie; if they contributed to it by saying anything more than that is what Pavel told us, then they would be in clear violation of the Honor Code should Pavel try to change the story later.

penny wrote:And do consider, she had no injuries and Young was a man. A bare-naked woman who a man tried to physically rape, premeditatedly, had no injuries? Is that because she lured him into the locker room after he rejected her advances, thus was able to get in the first strike?

It wouldn't be difficult to prove to anyone's satisfaction that she was physically more powerful than him and had fighting skills. She is a Sphinxian, so she has denser muscles. That's something he should have known. He probably did in the back of his mind, but dismissed as irrelevant because he was convinced of his right to "convince" any woman and she'd give in.

And in any case, what's his story for why he met her in the women's showers? Did she invite him there for a tryst, after having publicly rejected him? What story would he give to explain her change of mind?

Then there are Honor's witness to her mood afterwards: namely, her roommate, Mike Henke. She would corroborate Honor's state of mind after the event, as distraught. Premeditated assault wouldn't fit. Plus, they'd also point out that Nimitz had been uncharacteristically sick. Circumstantial, but damning nonetheless.

Moreover, Henke did go to the Island's authorities (IIRC), so they had a record of her allegations at the time, so Pavel couldn't claim that it was all made up "he said she said." Oh, he wouldn't know that before accusing Honor, so it's good for him he didn't.

tlb wrote:

On Basilisk Station wrote:By the time anyone else knew a thing about it, his cronies had dragged him off to the infirmary with some story about "falling down the stairs" on his way to the gym.

Jonathan_S wrote:It isn't clear from that whether their story was actually "Pavel told us he fell down the stairs", in which case you're right and they couldn't be charged for lying, or their story was "we was right there when he tripped and crashed down the stairs", which would have been a stronger alibi -- but if disproved would put them on the hook for knowingly lying about the situation.

However even if all they did was state "Yes, that is what happened", then they were contributing to a lie by lying themselves. No matter who came up with the original lie; if they contributed to it by saying anything more than that is what Pavel told us, then they would be in clear violation of the Honor Code should Pavel try to change the story later.

I am going to have to disagree. The story is plausible because his cronies were certainly not in the shower feasting their eyes on a naked Harrington. They certainly did not claim that to be the case and that they did nothing while it happened but watch. That would be a worse charge. When they did happen upon Young, he might have been sitting at the bottom of the stairs trying to get his shit together.

Or. Honor pummeled Young! And when you are trying to descend a flight of stairs, broken, bruised and in pain, you might actually lose your grip on the railing and stumble those last several stairs. They could have happened upon Young then and only learned of the truth later, after they had already told what they witnessed and what Young told them. It wasn't a lie if they believed it to be true at the time. They only saw him tumble the last several stairs.

And do consider, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Honor lied too. Why would she lie if it was actually an attempted rape. It was because as she was accused on Grayson, she was desperate to get someone to rut between her lonesome thighs. It was simply a baseborn Commoner trying to catch herself a Lord and was rejected, scorned and seeking revenge. She knew Young to be a ladies man and whistled at him while she was standing butt butterball naked and dripping wet in the door to the shower.

Honor's martial arts expertise and her Sphinxian-bred strength saving the day could be called into question. You ever tried to make any sudden movements inside a wet shower while dripping wet and standing on slippery soapy tile? One quick movement and you'll bust your own head. Slippery soapy showers are no place for martial arts.

No, Honor lied herself because she was a scorned rejected woman who was trying to save face. Her refusal to tell the truth that Young actually tried to rape her is too damaging a hurdle to clear, IF Young had actually tried to rape her. She didn't admit it because he didn't try to rape her.