Sally goes rogue

penny wrote:Honor had the exact same responsibility as the Queen as far as the war effort; of prosecuting it as safely as possible with as less loss of life as possible. And failing to shoot it in the foot.

The fact that her actions regarding Young somewhat turned out ok is besides the point.

tlb wrote:There is no reason to assume that the Queen's support has to be formalized; it is sufficient that the Queen refused to dissuade her (the Queen has rarely been shy about letting her feelings known). There is no evidence that the Queen's inner emotions were any different than what she stated.

It is ridiculous to claim that the Queen's responsibilities are the same as those of a Captain of the List. Pavel Young hired the murder of the person Honor loved merely to punish her (and him) and to allow that to go unanswered would have destroyed her.

Saying she shot the war effort in the foot cannot be squared with saying her actions turned out okay. Note that she would never believe that killing Pavel Young was detrimental to the war effort, just as ThinksMarkedly implied he was a blot on government.

tlb wrote:There is no reason to assume that the Queen's support has to be formalized; it is sufficient that the Queen refused to dissuade her (the Queen has rarely been shy about letting her feelings known). There is no evidence that the Queen's inner emotions were any different than what she stated.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We have reason to know her support was factual, though not official. In Toll of Honor (sorry for the minor spoilers; I don't recall if this was explicit before), we're told she explicitly told the Prime Minister to back off when he went to her to try and ask her to talk to Honor. She not only refused to interfere, she explicitly told Cromarty to not do so either.

tlb wrote:Would Yu have had the cunning to hide the SD's as Honor did and then the imagination to chase away Theisman with a bluff?

tlb wrote:Would Yu have had the cunning to hide the SD's as Honor did and then the imagination to chase away Theisman with a bluff?

Jonathan_S wrote:Possibly not. OTOH without the confidence of Honor and Yu commanding their home fleet the GSN might not have been willing to send any SDs off to assist Manticore. (And there might have been less need for them if Manticore had gotten their declaration of war -- and the resulting emergency funding -- sooner)

Don't forget that the Dagger attack on Grayson was predicated on confirming that Stalking Horse had lured their SDs away. So it's possible that if Honor stays in the RMN all the GSN SDs stay home and Fourth Yeltsin never happens because Stalking Horse fails to provide the required preconditions for it.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Would Yu have had the cunning to hide the SD's as Honor did and then the imagination to chase away Theisman with a bluff?

Jonathan_S wrote:Possibly not. OTOH without the confidence of Honor and Yu commanding their home fleet the GSN might not have been willing to send any SDs off to assist Manticore. (And there might have been less need for them if Manticore had gotten their declaration of war -- and the resulting emergency funding -- sooner)

Don't forget that the Dagger attack on Grayson was predicated on confirming that Stalking Horse had lured their SDs away. So it's possible that if Honor stays in the RMN all the GSN SDs stay home and Fourth Yeltsin never happens because Stalking Horse fails to provide the required preconditions for it.

The SDs sent off to assist Manticore were those SDs that had been gifted by Manticore following Fleet Admiral Amos Parnell's defeat at Grayson, so it would be difficult to refuse. Also if Manticore had a greater need then they might have gifted fewer. Grayson was behaving in a grateful way to its benefactor.

penny wrote:How can anyone believe that Honor's support was official??? No, the Queen's support did not have to be written in stone, printed in the faxes. But it would have been nice, as far as Honor was concerned. The Queen DID NOT give Honor official support. She couldn't! Any more than she could shoot the war effort in the foot by avenging her father's death.

If Honor had the Queen's official support she would not have been kicked out of the Star Kingdom. Honor arrived on Grayson an emotional wreck. A mere shell of the woman she was. You call that support? With friends like that who needs enemies. I am sure Honor was dumbfounded. 'What just happened? After all I did for my beloved Star Kingdom?'

As a matter of fact, the failure to officially support Honor almost cost the galaxy the best tactician and strategist the galaxy has ever seen! Honor was through with the navy! Grayson had to beg her back into a uniform!

Epilogue wrote:"Bushwah!" White Haven snorted, and she twitched in fresh surprise and an echo of pain. He saw the hurt in her eyes and reached out quickly. "What?" he asked much more gently, and she gave her head a little toss and inhaled deeply.
"That was what the Admiral—Admiral Courvosier—always said to me when I came up with the wrong answer, Sir," she said softly.
"Really?" White Haven smiled crookedly, and this time he touched her, resting his hand on her good shoulder. "I'm not surprised. It's what he used to say to me, too." His hand tightened gently. "He was a good man, Honor. A good teacher and a better friend, and he always had the eye. He knew the stars when he saw them, and I think—" he looked directly into her eyes "—that he might be prouder of you now than he ever was before."
"Proud, Sir?" This time her voice did break, and she blinked on stinging tears.
"Proud. The reason I was so angry with you, Honor, was that you made me forget the very first principle of command: never give an order you know won't be obeyed. The fact that it was an illegal order only aggravated my anger, and I took it out on you. That's what I came here for—to tell you that . . . and to apologize."
"Apologize?" She stared at him through the spangles of her tears, unable to understand, and he nodded.
"You did the right thing, Honor Harrington," he said softly. "You're catching hell for it now, but it was the only thing you could do and still be you, and what you are is a very fine thing indeed, Captain. Never doubt that. Never let the bastards snapping at your heels convince you otherwise."
"Is this some sort of pep talk now that the damage is done, Sir?" She was shocked by the vicious note in her own voice and raised her hand half-apologetically, but he only shook it off with a toss of his head.
"It is not. You're on half-pay now. Well, you're not unique in that. I've been on half-pay more than once, and never for a reason as good as yours. This war is going to last a long time, Captain. Peep resistance is already stiffening, and they still have the tonnage advantage. We'll cut deeper before they can stop us, but then it's going to be stalemate while each of us looks for a fresh advantage. I think we'll find one in time, but it's going to take time, and, as Raoul once told me on an occasion somewhat like this one, 'This, too, shall pass.' We need you, Captain. I know that, the Admiralty knows it, Her Majesty knows it, and one day the Kingdom will remember it."
Honor's mouth trembled with the need to believe him and the fear of more pain to come if she let herself, and he squeezed her shoulder again.
"Go to Grayson, Honor. Take your medicine. You don't deserve it, but no one ever said life was fair. But don't think this is the end. The scandal will die down eventually, the Navy will know it needs you, and, in time, even the House of Lords will realize it. You'll come home, Lady Harrington, and when you do, there'll be a command deck under your feet again."

And it did turn out for the better, because she became a full Admiral in the GSN when High Admiral Matthews gave her the entire First Battle Squadron. If she weren't there, Fourth Yeltsin would have gone differently. The saving grace is that Alfredo Yu was there and needs might have made him Commodore instead of flag captain to Honor.