Sally goes rogue

penny wrote:But everything else withstands my momentary mental faux pas.

markusschaber wrote:The queen actually agreed with Honor in this case, which the Queen also expressed in discussions with her ministers.
And what Honor did was completely legal, according to manticoran law. Not really an example for "going rogue", IMHO.

penny wrote:I am going to keep saying it. When the MA is found, Honor will be reactivated. She made a promise. She does not break promises.

I posed the following question before. Do you really think there is another officer better suited to lead Grand Fleet "into the fire" and into the unknown? Where angels fear to tread and the only creature who can survive is a genetically enhanced Salamander? You don't want your first chess move against Darius to be a bad one. And that move would be absolutely insane. Of course, Darius would love to be disrespected and have to play host to less than the GA's best tactician and strategist.

P.S. In what universe would Honor, who has the support of 75% of the universe, not have the support of at least Grayson? In the HV?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:But everything else withstands my momentary mental faux pas.

Then can you do as ThinksMarkedly asked and supply a correct example of Honor "going against the Queen in a public setting"?

penny wrote:But everything else withstands my momentary mental faux pas.

tlb wrote:Then can you do as ThinksMarkedly asked and supply a correct example of Honor "going against the Queen in a public setting"?

penny wrote:My homework is piling up on me in the midst of this exciting NCAA tournament!

This will not be a popular post. What's new? But I shall always, must always, remain true to myself.

I think I did give one of those examples now that I think of it. At the risk of appearing as if I am simply trying to diminish my faux pas, is it incorrect to say that Honor did go against the Queen in a public setting? Just because the Queen did not or could not ask Honor not to seek out the duel with Young for sake of the war effort, does not mean that she did not wish for Honor not to do so, indeed need for Honor not to do so. She just needed Honor to make the decision on her own. After all, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Moreover, Honor is a Queen's officer. She "works" for and represents the navy, Queen and country. Her actions reflect on her Queen and country. It is a notion which is causing many people to stumble in today's society. It is at the root of our "cancel culture." If your actions can be considered detrimental to your employment because said actions are a bad reflection on your employer, does the school board have a right to fire a teacher because she dances as a stripper after hours? Or because she has recently constructed a questionable webpage?

Honor had an obligation to her Queen and country. Her actions reflected on both. Whitehaven was simply trying to get Honor to recognize that fact. Understandable of him, IINM that it was mainly his ass that was in the hot seat that could have been blown out from under him because he was the one tasked with the main prong responsible for prosecuting the war.

Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. If it can be said that Honor cannot go rogue because nobody would believe that it was not sanctioned by the Queen, then it could also be said that nobody would believe that any of her actions are not sanctioned by the Queen.

Chapter 46 wrote:"Very few people know this," she told them, "and as your Queen, I must have your oaths that no one will hear of it from you—except, perhaps, Benjamin himself, in your case, Honor." Her guests looked at one another, then nodded and turned back to her, and she squared her shoulders.
"You both know my father was killed in a grav-skiing accident. What you don't know is that the 'accident' was nothing of the sort. He was assassinated." Honor sucked in air, feeling as if someone had just punched her in the belly. "He was, in fact, murdered by certain Manticoran politicians opposed to his military policies . . . and effectively in the pay of the People's Republic of Haven," Elizabeth went on bleakly. "They hoped to put a teenaged Heir—me—on the throne and to control my choice of regent in order to . . . redirect Manticoran policy away from preparing to resist Peep aggression. That was the long-term goal. As for the short-term one—" she smiled mirthlessly "—you will no doubt recall that it was very shortly after my father's death that the Peeps moved in on Trevor's Star. I have no doubt they counted on the confusion engendered by Dad's death to paralyze any potential attempt on our part to prevent them from securing control of one terminus of the Junction."
"My God, Elizabeth!" Alexander was so shaken he forgot the titles he was usually so careful to use in his official relationship with the Queen. "If you knew that, why didn't you tell someone?!"
"I couldn't," Elizabeth said, her voice bleaker than ever, harrowed and brittle with old pain. "We weren't ready for open war, and any charge that the Legislaturalists had orchestrated Dad's murder might have led to just that. Even if it hadn't, the proof that Havenite agents had actually penetrated the highest levels of our own government and assassinated the King could only have led to massive witch-hunts which would have crippled us domestically when we had to be strong and united to support the military buildup. And that sort of bitter, denunciatory mutual suspicion would only have made it even easier for future Havenite agents to denounce the 'traitors' more loudly than anyone else in order to get themselves into positions of power here at home."
She closed her eyes briefly, her expression haggard and haunted, and her nostrils flared.
"I wanted them dead. God, how I wanted them dead! But Allen and Aunt Caitrin—especially Aunt Caitrin—convinced me that I couldn't have them arrested and tried. I even wanted to challenge them to duels and kill them with my own hands if I couldn't have them tried." She smiled crookedly at the sudden understanding on Honor's face, and nodded. "Which is why I sympathized so deeply with you over that bastard North Hollow, Honor," she admitted. "But the same things which made it impossible to try them made a duel even more impossible, and so I had to let them go. I had to let the men and women who'd murdered my father out of cold, self-serving ambition live."

"I couldn't," Elizabeth said, her voice bleaker than ever, harrowed and brittle with old pain. "We weren't ready for open war, and any charge that the Legislaturalists had orchestrated Dad's murder might have led to just that. Even if it hadn't, the proof that Havenite agents had actually penetrated the highest levels of our own government and assassinated the King could only have led to massive witch-hunts which would have crippled us domestically when we had to be strong and united to support the military buildup. And that sort of bitter, denunciatory mutual suspicion would only have made it even easier for future Havenite agents to denounce the 'traitors' more loudly than anyone else in order to get themselves into positions of power here at home."

penny wrote:Another ~ non sequitur. Per the current discussion, it doesn't matter whether what White Haven was trying to accomplish was legal or not.

This is the part of the text that supports what I am saying.

"I couldn't," Elizabeth said, her voice bleaker than ever, harrowed and brittle with old pain. "We weren't ready for open war, and any charge that the Legislaturalists had orchestrated Dad's murder might have led to just that. Even if it hadn't, the proof that Havenite agents had actually penetrated the highest levels of our own government and assassinated the King could only have led to massive witch-hunts which would have crippled us domestically when we had to be strong and united to support the military buildup. And that sort of bitter, denunciatory mutual suspicion would only have made it even easier for future Havenite agents to denounce the 'traitors' more loudly than anyone else in order to get themselves into positions of power here at home."

Beth sees the obligation to swallow her need for revenge in favor of her responsibility to her Star Kingdom. Same as Honor's responsibility as a Queen's officer.

tlb wrote:But, of course, Honor's responsibilities at this time are not the same as the Queen's were at that time and staying on active duty at Manticore is NOT as important as seeking justice - which the Queen supported. The question wasn't about Honor's responsibilities or priorities, but only whether she had the Queen's support and she did.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:But, of course, Honor's responsibilities at this time are not the same as the Queen's were at that time and staying on active duty at Manticore is NOT as important as seeking justice - which the Queen supported. The question wasn't about Honor's responsibilities or priorities, but only whether she had the Queen's support and she did.

Further, Honor was a mere Captain of the List at the time, flag captain of BatCruRon 5 under Adm. Moreno (Sarnow was in the hospital) and attached to Home Fleet. Her actions had much less impact on the overall stability of the Star Kingdom than they do now. And one might argue that not challenging North Hollow could be an even worse outcome, because it would have continued to embolden him. He wanted her dead and he would eventually succeed; by forcing his hand, he exposed himself, such as the contract to assault the restaurant when she was speaking to her financial advisor.

Pavel Young was a sociopath and would continue to manipulate Star Kingdom politics for a while, had he lived. Imagine what the High Ridge government would have been if he were still Earl North Hollow, instead of his brother Stefan (granted, neither Honor nor the Queen could have known that). Stefan, on the other hand, was much dumber and he was manipulated by Georgia Sakristos.

If you fast-forward to now, she's a retired Fleet Admiral, with much bigger responsibilities, both official and moral. She also knows the Queen and Empress' opinions much better, so it's much less likely that she would be unable to know if the Queen would disapprove of her actions. That was my other argument: now, she would definitely know if the Queen approved or not. Therefore, I am arguing she isn't likely to go against the Queen's wishes.

penny wrote:She did not have the Queen's support. She had the Queen's understanding. The Queen's support would have been formal, and at least a byline in the faxes. And she would at least have been gift wrapped before she was exiled, err, shipped off, err exiled to Grayson. My point was that she knew the Queen's inner emotions and thus went against the Queen's wishes. Do you think the Queen would have been sad if Honor had not executed Young?

Honor had the exact same responsibility as the Queen as far as the war effort; of prosecuting it as safely as possible with as less loss of life as possible. And failing to shoot it in the foot.

The fact that her actions regarding Young somewhat turned out ok is besides the point.