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Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes

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Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by Mycall4me   » Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:59 pm

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Interstellar travel in hyper in the Honorverse depends on the hyper generator the impeller drive and for grav waves alpha nodes. The spider drive is none of those things. Obviously to travel in interstellar space those things would need to be included in any ship equipped with the spider drive.

David doesn't specifically state that that is the case when he's described vessels equipped with the spider drive. I don't know if that's because he's figured it's an obvious thing or if there may be an entirely different reason involving pecularities of ships with spider drives, that we don't yet know about.

I'm pretty sure that the shark class of spider drive vessels involved in the sneak attacks on Manticore and Grayson were "delivered" by freighters specifically configered for that purpose. IIRC

The Detweiller spider drive podnaughts would obviously NOT be able to do that. The hyper generator that the sharks used to translate out of hyper after the freighters got them there would obviously not be a problem to fit into the ships. Which would also be the case in the Detweiller's

What I'm not sure of is how much the triple skeg requirement of the spider drive would effect fitting in an impeller drive AND alpha nodes.

I know that freighters don't require the bulbous fore and aft impeller nodes that warships require. But there have to be SOME physical constraints in placing impeller drives and alpha nodes and I wonder if the triple skegs REQUIRED by the spider drive would create any problems. ALSO I'm not 100% sure if impeller drive is an absolute requirement in hyper. I KNOW that if you want to get there more quickly/effectively, alpha nodes in a grav wave is necessary

So IS it a problem? Or is the reason that RFC hasn't mentioned it is because we would all appreciate there being a reason that a spider drive ship would have a built in (as it were) weakness? Frankly I would like to give spider drive ships a weakness to offset it's advantages.

I know, pure speculation at this point until RFC let's us in on what he knows he has in mind. But inquiring minds wanting to know and all that. So, speculations anyone?

Also there are built in weaknesses of the spider drive it's low acceleration and the lack of the grav sump provided with an impeller drive is one such, are there any others I may have overlooked?
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by tlb   » Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:41 pm

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Mycall4me wrote:I'm pretty sure that the shark class of spider drive vessels involved in the sneak attacks on Manticore and Grayson were "delivered" by freighters specifically configered for that purpose.

No, the Shark class flew in hyperspace on their own; chapter 51 of Storm from the Shadows describes them making their transition to normal space. It was done in a way to look like an errant signal.

The Ghost class scouts were delivered by freighter, but it is generally assumed that they flew away under their own power (even if it was just to a meeting somewhere with another freighter). We do not have a description of how that worked at Grayson, since there is not a wormhole to serve as a fake destination.
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:03 pm

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Mycall4me wrote:Interstellar travel in hyper in the Honorverse depends on the hyper generator the impeller drive and for grav waves alpha nodes. The spider drive is none of those things. Obviously to travel in interstellar space those things would need to be included in any ship equipped with the spider drive.

David doesn't specifically state that that is the case when he's described vessels equipped with the spider drive. I don't know if that's because he's figured it's an obvious thing or if there may be an entirely different reason involving pecularities of ships with spider drives, that we don't yet know about.

I'm pretty sure that the shark class of spider drive vessels involved in the sneak attacks on Manticore and Grayson were "delivered" by freighters specifically configered for that purpose. IIRC

The Detweiller spider drive podnaughts would obviously NOT be able to do that. The hyper generator that the sharks used to translate out of hyper after the freighters got them there would obviously not be a problem to fit into the ships. Which would also be the case in the Detweiller's

What I'm not sure of is how much the triple skeg requirement of the spider drive would effect fitting in an impeller drive AND alpha nodes.

I know that freighters don't require the bulbous fore and aft impeller nodes that warships require. But there have to be SOME physical constraints in placing impeller drives and alpha nodes and I wonder if the triple skegs REQUIRED by the spider drive would create any problems. ALSO I'm not 100% sure if impeller drive is an absolute requirement in hyper. I KNOW that if you want to get there more quickly/effectively, alpha nodes in a grav wave is necessary

So IS it a problem? Or is the reason that RFC hasn't mentioned it is because we would all appreciate there being a reason that a spider drive ship would have a built in (as it were) weakness? Frankly I would like to give spider drive ships a weakness to offset it's advantages.

I know, pure speculation at this point until RFC let's us in on what he knows he has in mind. But inquiring minds wanting to know and all that. So, speculations anyone?

Also there are built in weaknesses of the spider drive it's low acceleration and the lack of the grav sump provided with an impeller drive is one such, are there any others I may have overlooked?
The Ghost-class scout ships were delivered by 4 mton freighter (all the way into normal space before being ejected) - to hide their insertion. The Shark-class self-delivered themselves; and nothing in the text says that they were carried by freighters at any point in their journey. (And doing so would have been a good trick since, at partway between a BB and DN is size, they're a major fraction of the size of even the largest freighter -- good luck figuring out how to get one in or out of the freighter's cargo bay(s).)

Incidentally the text explicitly notes that their reduced emergence signal insertion tactic had be tested with Ghost-class ships first; confirming that those also mount hyper generators. (I'd presume that the MAlign would have put their streak-drive generators in all of them; to give a bit better strategic speed to make up some for their slow tactical speed)
[quote="Mission Of Honor - Ch: 12]Task Force One of the Mesan Alignment Navy translated ever so slowly and gradually back into normal-space.
This maneuver had been tested against the Mesa System's sensor arrays by crews using the early Ghost-class ships even before the first of the Shark-class prototypes had ever been laid down, and Task Force One had practiced it over a hundred times once the mission had been okayed. Despite all that, Topolev still cherished a few reservations about the entire operation. Not about the abilities of his people, or the technical capabilities of his vessels, but about the timing.
And about the fact that we were never supposed to carry this out with the Sharks in the first place, Freddy, he reminded himself. Don't forget that minor point! This was what the Leonard Detweiler class was supposed to be for [/quote]

Fitting impeller nodes, given the spider hull shape, is something we've discussed a fair bit (I think as recently as a week or so ago). There are some unknowns (like whether using Alpha nodes only to project sails has the same hull space limitations that using them for forming wedges does) - but at a minimum Alpha nodes could likely be mounted on rams or structure that stuck them out far enough from the hull to avoid damaging it from the grav shear of their startup.

Normally that's a bad idea because it buys you a larger compensated area; and thus a lower acceleration. But the spider ships can't use a compensator anyway so doing that wouldn't impact their acceleration at all; that would still be limited by their grav plates. However that would leave the nodes even more exposed to damage than when they're tucked in behind a warship's armored hammerheads.

The hammerhead isn't required by the physics of the wedge; but it is allowed by it. The hull taper is required by the physics of the wedge. (Or rather, it allows a wider hull amidships than it does at the impeller rings; and you're paying the acceleration penalty for that volume whether you put hull there or not; so it's the most cost and combat effective to taper the hull out as much as the drive allows; generating that double tapered spindle hull form common to all impeller drive starships)


An impeller drive is definitely not a requirement for hyper. If nothing else the hyper generator was invented over a hundred years before the impeller, and the early hyper scouts used fusion powered reaction drives (and while in normal space hydrogen ramscoops to collect that reaction mass).

Now, as far as we know, sails are required if you want to enter or use a grav wave -- but if you stick to the rifts (when an impeller drive could be used) you should be able to use a spider drive to get around; and you definitely can use a reaction drive.
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by Mycall4me   » Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:50 pm

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tlb wrote:
Mycall4me wrote:I'm pretty sure that the shark class of spider drive vessels involved in the sneak attacks on Manticore and Grayson were "delivered" by freighters specifically configered for that purpose.

No, the Shark class flew in hyperspace on their own; chapter 51 of Storm from the Shadows describes them making their transition to normal space. It was done in a way to look like an errant signal.

The Ghost class scouts were delivered by freighter, but it is generally assumed that they flew away under their own power (even if it was just to a meeting somewhere with another freighter). We do not have a description of how that worked at Grayson, since there is not a wormhole to serve as a fake destination.


I DID say IIRC. Obviously I DIDN'T. My memory isn't that good for certain things. That's one of the problems when you get older. Ofc it's better than NOT getting older!
Last edited by Mycall4me on Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by Mycall4me   » Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:57 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Mycall4me wrote:Interstellar travel in hyper in the Honorverse depends on the hyper generator the impeller drive and for grav waves alpha nodes. The spider drive is none of those things. Obviously to travel in interstellar space those things would need to be included in any ship equipped with the spider drive.

David doesn't specifically state that that is the case when he's described vessels equipped with the spider drive. I don't know if that's because he's figured it's an obvious thing or if there may be an entirely different reason involving pecularities of ships with spider drives, that we don't yet know about.

I'm pretty sure that the shark class of spider drive vessels involved in the sneak attacks on Manticore and Grayson were "delivered" by freighters specifically configered for that purpose. IIRC

The Detweiller spider drive podnaughts would obviously NOT be able to do that. The hyper generator that the sharks used to translate out of hyper after the freighters got them there would obviously not be a problem to fit into the ships. Which would also be the case in the Detweiller's

What I'm not sure of is how much the triple skeg requirement of the spider drive would effect fitting in an impeller drive AND alpha nodes.

I know that freighters don't require the bulbous fore and aft impeller nodes that warships require. But there have to be SOME physical constraints in placing impeller drives and alpha nodes and I wonder if the triple skegs REQUIRED by the spider drive would create any problems. ALSO I'm not 100% sure if impeller drive is an absolute requirement in hyper. I KNOW that if you want to get there more quickly/effectively, alpha nodes in a grav wave is necessary

So IS it a problem? Or is the reason that RFC hasn't mentioned it is because we would all appreciate there being a reason that a spider drive ship would have a built in (as it were) weakness? Frankly I would like to give spider drive ships a weakness to offset it's advantages.

I know, pure speculation at this point until RFC let's us in on what he knows he has in mind. But inquiring minds wanting to know and all that. So, speculations anyone?

Also there are built in weaknesses of the spider drive it's low acceleration and the lack of the grav sump provided with an impeller drive is one such, are there any others I may have overlooked?
The Ghost-class scout ships were delivered by 4 mton freighter (all the way into normal space before being ejected) - to hide their insertion. The Shark-class self-delivered themselves; and nothing in the text says that they were carried by freighters at any point in their journey. (And doing so would have been a good trick since, at partway between a BB and DN is size, they're a major fraction of the size of even the largest freighter -- good luck figuring out how to get one in or out of the freighter's cargo bay(s).)

Incidentally the text explicitly notes that their reduced emergence signal insertion tactic had be tested with Ghost-class ships first; confirming that those also mount hyper generators. (I'd presume that the MAlign would have put their streak-drive generators in all of them; to give a bit better strategic speed to make up some for their slow tactical speed)
[quote="Mission Of Honor - Ch: 12]Task Force One of the Mesan Alignment Navy translated ever so slowly and gradually back into normal-space.
This maneuver had been tested against the Mesa System's sensor arrays by crews using the early Ghost-class ships even before the first of the Shark-class prototypes had ever been laid down, and Task Force One had practiced it over a hundred times once the mission had been okayed. Despite all that, Topolev still cherished a few reservations about the entire operation. Not about the abilities of his people, or the technical capabilities of his vessels, but about the timing.
And about the fact that we were never supposed to carry this out with the Sharks in the first place, Freddy, he reminded himself. Don't forget that minor point! This was what the Leonard Detweiler class was supposed to be for [/quote]

Fitting impeller nodes, given the spider hull shape, is something we've discussed a fair bit (I think as recently as a week or so ago). There are some unknowns (like whether using Alpha nodes only to project sails has the same hull space limitations that using them for forming wedges does) - but at a minimum Alpha nodes could likely be mounted on rams or structure that stuck them out far enough from the hull to avoid damaging it from the grav shear of their startup.

Normally that's a bad idea because it buys you a larger compensated area; and thus a lower acceleration. But the spider ships can't use a compensator anyway so doing that wouldn't impact their acceleration at all; that would still be limited by their grav plates. However that would leave the nodes even more exposed to damage than when they're tucked in behind a warship's armored hammerheads.

The hammerhead isn't required by the physics of the wedge; but it is allowed by it. The hull taper is required by the physics of the wedge. (Or rather, it allows a wider hull amidships than it does at the impeller rings; and you're paying the acceleration penalty for that volume whether you put hull there or not; so it's the most cost and combat effective to taper the hull out as much as the drive allows; generating that double tapered spindle hull form common to all impeller drive starships)


An impeller drive is definitely not a requirement for hyper. If nothing else the hyper generator was invented over a hundred years before the impeller, and the early hyper scouts used fusion powered reaction drives (and while in normal space hydrogen ramscoops to collect that reaction mass).

Now, as far as we know, sails are required if you want to enter or use a grav wave -- but if you stick to the rifts (when an impeller drive could be used) you should be able to use a spider drive to get around; and you definitely can use a reaction drive.[/quote]


Now THAT was more what I was looking for. Well, that and a little more potential downsides to having the triple skeg hull form requirments and the problems it might cause.

Stupid spider drive ships! I hate them.
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by penny   » Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:51 pm

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MyCall4Me wrote:Now THAT was more what I was looking for. Well, that and a little more potential downsides to having the triple skeg hull form requirments and the problems it might cause.

Stupid spider drive ships! I hate them.

Well, at least you said "potential downsides". As I have cautioned that the triple skeg form might actually turn out to be a blessing to the MAN in some capacity. Necessity is the mother of invention.

As far as you hating the spider drive ships? You are going to be joined by the GA in that thought.
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The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:38 am

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Mycall4me wrote:Now THAT was more what I was looking for. Well, that and a little more potential downsides to having the triple skeg hull form requirments and the problems it might cause.

Stupid spider drive ships! I hate them.

One question is how far the skegs/keels stick out -- do they block the any of the firing arc of the point defense weapons? (Probably not, but if they're tall and wide enough then they might create blind spots in the defensive fire as attacking missiles get closer.

And then normal ships their wedge massively shrinks the angles that hostile fire can hit you from -- the provided info lets us calculate that looking out the broadside of an SD a PDLC only has to worry about a 31.2 degree vertical slice of sky (+/- 15.6 degrees if it was mounted halfway up the broadside) at the extreme aft of the wedge, and a 106 degree vertical slice of sky at the extreme fore of the wedge. But most weapons fire would be coming in closer to perpendicular, rather than slanting in from just off the kilt or throat of the wedge to hit the broadside -- so the more likely angles are between a 64 and 75 degree vertical slice.
Anything above or below that is obscured by the outer lip of the wedge.

But a triple-skeg spider ship doesn't have that - a PDLC on one of its three broadsides has to worry about the entire 120 degree vertical slice of sky (less whatever small amount might be blocked by the skeg towering overhead at the edges of that). Plus of course no angle has the immunity to fire that the wedge gives from shots coming above or below it.

Given that the triple broadside they 3 skegs require has pros and cons; the downside is you need to spend mass, volume, and industrial output to build and install weapons on all three, so basically wrapping all the way around the 'barrel' of the hull - where-as impeller powered ships can concentrate their weapons onto their two smaller broadsides and leave the dorsal and ventral surface free for boat bays, sensors, thermal radiators, etc. The spider ship has no equivalent free area and will need to intersperse those with the rest of the things competing for space in its broadside. On the pro side, given that it has no wedge to protect the top and bottom, it's a good thing that the triple broadsides let it have defenses pointing in all directions -- it'd be in real trouble if it had a non-wedge engine that still prevented you from sticking defenses on the top and bottom.
Another downside is that since and spot around the barrel of the hull is equally likely to be pointed towards the enemy and be hit the full thickness of hull armor needs to wrap around the entire hull -- again a wedge lets you economize on armor (cost, volume, tonnage) on the top and bottom -- with smaller ship dispensing with it entirely and trusting to luck not to have a shot graze over the hammerhead and glance into the unarmored dorsal or ventral hull; and wallers reducing the thickness of armor up/down there.
Another pro is that without the wedge you don't get the more limited sensor readings looking up or down like regular warships do when looking through their wedge.


Finally, I'm not sure if we're explicitly told that the Lenny Dets will also be triple-skeg designs. We know that 3 is the minimum number, but I guess on something that big they might go for a 4-skeg design; so they get a broadside facing each cardinal direction, (so only having to cover 90 degrees of 'vertical' firing arc, rather that 120)
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:40 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Now, as far as we know, sails are required if you want to enter or use a grav wave -- but if you stick to the rifts (when an impeller drive could be used) you should be able to use a spider drive to get around; and you definitely can use a reaction drive.


Whether you mount Warshawski sails or not, you must have Warshawski detectors so you can tell where the grav waves are. Otherwise, the trips through hyperspace regress a thousand years to a time when it was so dangerous that only well-paid scouts did it.

But I don't think we know where the Warshawskis are actually located and any geometry they require. It's entirely possible they are tucked inside like the hypergenerator.
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 4:03 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:And then normal ships their wedge massively shrinks the angles that hostile fire can hit you from -- the provided info lets us calculate that looking out the broadside of an SD a PDLC only has to worry about a 31.2 degree vertical slice of sky (+/- 15.6 degrees if it was mounted halfway up the broadside) at the extreme aft of the wedge, and a 106 degree vertical slice of sky at the extreme fore of the wedge. But most weapons fire would be coming in closer to perpendicular, rather than slanting in from just off the kilt or throat of the wedge to hit the broadside -- so the more likely angles are between a 64 and 75 degree vertical slice.
Anything above or below that is obscured by the outer lip of the wedge.


No ship handler worth his paycheck would angle the throat or kilt to the oncoming attack. They'd turn so the wedge faces the attack (GA ships) or the sidewalls do (everyone else). There's probably a sweet spot angle of how much sidewall and how much wedge to have that allows firing CMs and PDLCs, but also protects the most.

Missiles can't all be travelling on the same plane so there's even less danger than the numbers above would indicate: some of the missiles have to be above or below the lip of the wedge when they reach stand-off range. None of that applies to a wedgeless ship.

But a triple-skeg spider ship doesn't have that - a PDLC on one of its three broadsides has to worry about the entire 120 degree vertical slice of sky (less whatever small amount might be blocked by the skeg towering overhead at the edges of that). Plus of course no angle has the immunity to fire that the wedge gives from shots coming above or below it.


Right, there's one big advantage with the triple skeg: you have three broadsides instead of just two to mount point defence weapons on. If each one has 120° of coverage, then they together cover everything; if they have more than 120°, then there's redundancy. And if the ship angles itself so a skeg points to the oncoming attack, then two broadsides are at play.

The problem is this big advantage does not offset the big disadvantage of having to cover 360° around the ship in the first place. It doesn't come even close!

Given that the triple broadside they 3 skegs require has pros and cons; the downside is you need to spend mass, volume, and industrial output to build and install weapons on all three, so basically wrapping all the way around the 'barrel' of the hull - where-as impeller powered ships can concentrate their weapons onto their two smaller broadsides and leave the dorsal and ventral surface free for boat bays, sensors, thermal radiators, etc. The spider ship has no equivalent free area and will need to intersperse those with the rest of the things competing for space in its broadside. On the pro side, given that it has no wedge to protect the top and bottom, it's a good thing that the triple broadsides let it have defenses pointing in all directions -- it'd be in real trouble if it had a non-wedge engine that still prevented you from sticking defenses on the top and bottom.
Another downside is that since and spot around the barrel of the hull is equally likely to be pointed towards the enemy and be hit the full thickness of hull armor needs to wrap around the entire hull -- again a wedge lets you economize on armor (cost, volume, tonnage) on the top and bottom -- with smaller ship dispensing with it entirely and trusting to luck not to have a shot graze over the hammerhead and glance into the unarmored dorsal or ventral hull; and wallers reducing the thickness of armor up/down there.


Another one is due to the tactic that those ships are likely to employ: stealth. Any hit, even if not anywhere close to crippling, would compromise the stealth of the ship. If the opponent hadn't locked on the ship before, they will now. So an LD cannot afford to take any hits, unless it's suiciding or about to translate to hyper anyway. Even if it does withdraw, its follow-up missions may need to be scrapped because it can't insert into the target system and sneak up, until it gets sufficient repair.

All this points out that there just has to be something more about those ships, because they're too fragile.

Another pro is that without the wedge you don't get the more limited sensor readings looking up or down like regular warships do when looking through their wedge.


That's a very minor saving grace, given that everyone has recon drones.

Finally, I'm not sure if we're explicitly told that the Lenny Dets will also be triple-skeg designs. We know that 3 is the minimum number, but I guess on something that big they might go for a 4-skeg design; so they get a broadside facing each cardinal direction, (so only having to cover 90 degrees of 'vertical' firing arc, rather that 120)


I think they do. Wasn't Albrecht Detweiler looking at them while in construction when he mused about their atypical design? Or was he looking at the Sharks and Ghosts? Either way, given that the Sharks were the scale prototype for the LD, one would assume that both share the same form.

If I had the ability to go for more than 3, I'd go for an hexagonal cross-section instead. That gives you a higher surface-to-volume ratio. But that may not be possible because the skegs themselves need to protrude from the rest of the hull.
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Re: Spider drive ships and impeller drives and alpha nodes
Post by tlb   » Mon Jan 29, 2024 4:38 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Wasn't Albrecht Detweiler looking at them while in construction when he mused about their atypical design? Or was he looking at the Sharks and Ghosts? Either way, given that the Sharks were the scale prototype for the LD, one would assume that both share the same form.

If I had the ability to go for more than 3, I'd go for an hexagonal cross-section instead. That gives you a higher surface-to-volume ratio. But that may not be possible because the skegs themselves need to protrude from the rest of the hull.

He was looking at the Sharks on their way to carry out Oyster Bay. In Storm from the Shadows:
Chapter 40 wrote:Albrecht wasn't the military specialist Benjamin was, but even he could tell the Sharks looked subtly wrong. They were too far away for the naked eye to see, but the view screen's magnification brought them to what seemed like arm's-length and made it obvious that all of them lacked the traditional "hammerhead" design of a military starship. Indeed, the lines of their hulls were all wrong, in one way or another, as if their designers had been working to a completely different set of constraints from anyone else in the galaxy.

Which was precisely what they had been doing.

The strike ships turned slowly, and then, as one unit, they went loping away into the trackless depths of space. And that, too, was wrong. The light-warping power of a starship's impeller drive made the ship within it impossible to see, except from exactly the right angle. But there was no gravitic distortion around these ships, nothing to bend and blur light waves, because they didn't use impeller wedges.
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