Detecting a spider drive ship

So, how do you go about detecting a spider drive ship when they don't show up on your gravitic detectors? Manticore has arguably the best understanding of, and ability to manipulate gravity and geav pulses. Grav pulses by their very nature are long range phenomenon. So what if, Manticore and the two S's (Shannon, and Sonja) take them and apply them in a way that uses them like radar pulses? If they were to use their grav pulse generators, possibly a high powered generator and use it in the same fashion as a radar pulse. Maybe a purpose built ship that sends and detects those pulses? It would seem to me that there would be a reflection of the grav pulse that could be detected by a sufficiently sensitive receiver. Admittedly, something would need to be done about differentiating them from the grav data transmissions, from drones, or mark 23-e missiles, or Hermes buoys. Or for that matter they might "blind" those data pulses, so that needs to be worked around some way I think those two things would be where the most difficulties would be, but also where Manticore's greater experience with grav pulses would stand it in good stead.

Or does anyone else have an idea about finding those damned invisible starships?

Mycall4me wrote:So, how do you go about detecting a spider drive ship when they don't show up on your gravitic detectors? Manticore has arguably the best understanding of, and ability to manipulate gravity and geav pulses. Grav pulses by their very nature are long range phenomenon. So what if, Manticore and the two S's (Shannon, and Sonja) take them and apply them in a way that uses them like radar pulses? If they were to use their grav pulse generators, possibly a high powered generator and use it in the same fashion as a radar pulse. Maybe a purpose built ship that sends and detects those pulses? It would seem to me that there would be a reflection of the grav pulse that could be detected by a sufficiently sensitive receiver. Admittedly, something would need to be done about differentiating them from the grav data transmissions, from drones, or mark 23-e missiles, or Hermes buoys. Or for that matter they might "blind" those data pulses, so that needs to be worked around some way I think those two things would be where the most difficulties would be, but also where Manticore's greater experience with grav pulses would stand it in good stead.

Or does anyone else have an idea about finding those damned invisible starships?

I've certainly speculated in the past that the spider drive tractors, by grabbing so hard they seize on the Alpha wall itself, might make for rigid or 'fixed' spots where they attach which might cause grav pulses to partially reflect off that 'fixed' spot they can't flow through.

I was thinking more active sonar than radar (but just because Spider ships seem like submarine analogs)

Of course even if true this can only detect one while its drive is active -- and probably at fairly short ranges (at least at first).


But I don't see how grav pulses (which, after all, are just ripples along the Alpha wall) could detect anything that wasn't itself interacting with the Alpha wall. So they're not going to be detecting the ships themselves any more than they'd be detecting planets or moons.



But if there's no fancy FTL way to detect spider ships we have to fall back on simply swamping the area around any target of interest with vast globes of recon drones, such that the ship (or its weapons) will need to penetrate one or much such shells. We know (and Manticore likely suspects) that they can't be stealthy from all aspects simultaneously -- so if the ship has to enter a giant and dense globe of recon drones at least one of them is likely to get a view of an unstealthy aspect of the spider ship and sound the alarm. Unsatisfying, and expensive, but we do know it'll work if you can throw enough drones at the problem.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Mycall4me wrote:So, how do you go about detecting a spider drive ship when they don't show up on your gravitic detectors? Manticore has arguably the best understanding of, and ability to manipulate gravity and geav pulses. Grav pulses by their very nature are long range phenomenon. So what if, Manticore and the two S's (Shannon, and Sonja) take them and apply them in a way that uses them like radar pulses? If they were to use their grav pulse generators, possibly a high powered generator and use it in the same fashion as a radar pulse. Maybe a purpose built ship that sends and detects those pulses? It would seem to me that there would be a reflection of the grav pulse that could be detected by a sufficiently sensitive receiver. Admittedly, something would need to be done about differentiating them from the grav data transmissions, from drones, or mark 23-e missiles, or Hermes buoys. Or for that matter they might "blind" those data pulses, so that needs to be worked around some way I think those two things would be where the most difficulties would be, but also where Manticore's greater experience with grav pulses would stand it in good stead.

Or does anyone else have an idea about finding those damned invisible starships?

I've certainly speculated in the past that the spider drive tractors, by grabbing so hard they seize on the Alpha wall itself, might make for rigid or 'fixed' spots where they attach which might cause grav pulses to partially reflect off that 'fixed' spot they can't flow through.

I was thinking more active sonar than radar (but just because Spider ships seem like submarine analogs)

Of course even if true this can only detect one while its drive is active -- and probably at fairly short ranges (at least at first).


But I don't see how grav pulses (which, after all, are just ripples along the Alpha wall) could detect anything that wasn't itself interacting with the Alpha wall. So they're not going to be detecting the ships themselves any more than they'd be detecting planets or moons.



But if there's no fancy FTL way to detect spider ships we have to fall back on simply swamping the area around any target of interest with vast globes of recon drones, such that the ship (or its weapons) will need to penetrate one or much such shells. We know (and Manticore likely suspects) that they can't be stealthy from all aspects simultaneously -- so if the ship has to enter a giant and dense globe of recon drones at least one of them is likely to get a view of an unstealthy aspect of the spider ship and sound the alarm. Unsatisfying, and expensive, but we do know it'll work if you can throw enough drones at the problem.

Okay, that sucks, bc I hadn't really applied that ripple effect, although I WAS aware of that bit of info, I was just considering grav pulse and radar pulse as being similar, but that doesn't compute.

My problem is trying to figure out where in the humungus volume of emptiness that is a star system, how do you know (or guess) where you send your finite number of drones to hopefully detect those never to be sufficiently damned invisible ships?

David did write that the Alignment had, after much experimentation developed a spider drive detector, but they knew what they were looking for, and presumably where to look for it. I don't care how good the two S's are, they're going to be shooting in the dark.

I suppose they might theorize that any starship drive SHOULD interact in some way with the basic "fabric" of space and try to develop something from there. Both of them are definitely used to thinking outside of the box, they could get lucky, but without actually having a working spider drive they won't know if any idea is a hit, or a miss.

Obviously there will have to be many incidents with spider drive ships that will allow some painfully aquired data for the two S's to analyze.

If a spider drive detector is developed I had an idea that it would be a great big huge detector that is tethered to the Home System. Very sensitive but somewhat a hit in the dark. Or it would require the enemy's help by venturing too close to emplacements.

Or it would be up to individual ships that got close enough to detect their aberration. Like in Hunt for Red October there was some sort of aberration in the sound created by the cavitation of water by the "quiet baffles." But that detection came down to one man listening to all the sounds in the ocean and who was aware of what the sound sounded like.

Drones might also do the trick. But let's face it, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell they will be detected before they blow something up. Throwing a lot of missiles and drones might work in the MBS, but I don't have faith in the tactic in the Darius system. Besides, only the best officers will have a chance to figure them out, because one of the holes missing in the intel is their acceleration. If their projected location is based on the accel of impeller drives, well, good "luck" in your hunt.

Active radars. The solution, pardon the pun, was given during Short Victorious War.

"Contact!" Alexander's tac officer shouted. "I have an impeller wedge, bearing one-three-six by oh-niner-two!" He slapped keys on his console. "Manty destroyer at eighteen million klicks, Captain!"
"Shit!" Commander Trent slammed a fist into the arm of her command chair. "Battle stations, but do not go active! Confirm!"
"Do not go active, aye." The tac officer confirmed the order even as Yasir Raven's thumb jammed down on the battle stations alarm. Staying in passive meant the cruiser couldn't bring up her impeller wedge or sidewalls, but it was still remotely possible that they hadn't been detected, and—
"Radar pulse!" Tactical snapped through the yowl of the alarm. "They've got us, Ma'am!" He paused, then, "Second drive source detected! Two destroyers at eighteen million klicks!"

For various reasons, mainly because of gravitic sensors, the entire Honorverse didn't use active sensors except in combat or due to detecting enough faint traces on other passive systems to justify "going active".

Well, they have a manufacturing base capable of turning out thousands of drones equipped with those radars. Enough to put up a screen around their hyper limits with regular, random patrols sweeping the interiors. It's a significant diversion of industrial capacity, but they don't even need to be perfect. All they need to do is cover enough space to make future insertion of spider ships or weapons incredibly risky for the Alignment.

munroburton wrote:Well, they have a manufacturing base capable of turning out thousands of drones equipped with those radars. Enough to put up a screen around their hyper limits with regular, random patrols sweeping the interiors. It's a significant diversion of industrial capacity, but they don't even need to be perfect. All they need to do is cover enough space to make future insertion of spider ships or weapons incredibly risky for the Alignment.

Drones don't usually do that because an emitting drone is a visible drone and thus can be picked off by the enemy. Drones are usually used stealthily and close by so they can get more detailed information on the target forces.

However, shooting down a drone also gives away your position, or at the very least the fact that someone is out there and roughly where. A spider drive ship seeing the drone radar pulses has to guess whether it's been detected or not. If it's not been detected and doesn't shoot the drone down, it may still proceed in its mission.

But if they got it wrong and it had been detected, not shooting means the enemy could be vectoring in other stealth assets to get a closer look at the spider ship or to fire missiles more closely to ensure it won't escape.

If it shoots, then it definitely is detected. This may be best if it escapes with little to no damage, possibly after activating its own attack (which may be too early). But this may be better than allowing the enemy to get closer.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Drones don't usually do that because an emitting drone is a visible drone and thus can be picked off by the enemy. Drones are usually used stealthily and close by so they can get more detailed information on the target forces.

However, shooting down a drone also gives away your position, or at the very least the fact that someone is out there and roughly where. A spider drive ship seeing the drone radar pulses has to guess whether it's been detected or not. If it's not been detected and doesn't shoot the drone down, it may still proceed in its mission.

But if they got it wrong and it had been detected, not shooting means the enemy could be vectoring in other stealth assets to get a closer look at the spider ship or to fire missiles more closely to ensure it won't escape.

If it shoots, then it definitely is detected. This may be best if it escapes with little to no damage, possibly after activating its own attack (which may be too early). But this may be better than allowing the enemy to get closer.

It's a deterrence strategy. To paraphrase Dr Strangelove, for a weapon to deter, you have to make sure the other side knows it exists. The objective isn't to catch any spider ships(or torpedoes dropped by freighters), but to stop any more from even attempting to visit.

If they visit anyway, the loss of one or even hundreds of those radar drones are acceptable even if it only provides an early warning. No need to waste any stealth on them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

munroburton wrote:Well, they have a manufacturing base capable of turning out thousands of drones equipped with those radars. Enough to put up a screen around their hyper limits with regular, random patrols sweeping the interiors. It's a significant diversion of industrial capacity, but they don't even need to be perfect. All they need to do is cover enough space to make future insertion of spider ships or weapons incredibly risky for the Alignment.

Drones don't usually do that because an emitting drone is a visible drone and thus can be picked off by the enemy. Drones are usually used stealthily and close by so they can get more detailed information on the target forces.

However, shooting down a drone also gives away your position, or at the very least the fact that someone is out there and roughly where. A spider drive ship seeing the drone radar pulses has to guess whether it's been detected or not. If it's not been detected and doesn't shoot the drone down, it may still proceed in its mission.

But if they got it wrong and it had been detected, not shooting means the enemy could be vectoring in other stealth assets to get a closer look at the spider ship or to fire missiles more closely to ensure it won't escape.

If it shoots, then it definitely is detected. This may be best if it escapes with little to no damage, possibly after activating its own attack (which may be too early). But this may be better than allowing the enemy to get closer.

I think there's a problem with stationing drones, their power needs are going to be a finite resource. Even the mini fusion plant is going to need it's reactor mass renewed sooner or later.

That's why I feel that a proactive stance will be required. What I think needs to be done is going to be something that has at least some active emitter, the spider drive (as described by David) has an extremely small active emission signature, so it would seem to me that we can't "hear" it, (the drive) but will have to "look" for it (the ship)

[quote="munroburton"]Active radars. The solution, pardon the pun, was given during Short Victorious War.

[quote]

I'm not sure that's a practical solution. Besides the fusion mass that's been mention, the main problem is that you need to cover the edge inside the entire hyper limit. That's is a lot of satellites even for honorverse technology and industry. Even if your willing to tolerate a extremely wide range between the satellites and risk some of your coverage. And honorverse tech isn't perfect. A lot of those satellites might maintenance a programing glitch, etc, and need maintenance. And far enough out that any maintenance, that was hands on, would be a pita.

Mycall4me wrote:I think there's a problem with stationing drones, their power needs are going to be a finite resource. Even the mini fusion plant is going to need it's reactor mass renewed sooner or later.

No problem. Use fission power - if it was practical for LACs, then it's probably practical for those drones. Or use plain old solar panels!

A semi-decent design would allow these satellites to be launched from their manufacturing or storage site with enough fuel to reach their final orbits. They do not need to do much maneuvering afterwards.

Puidwen wrote:I'm not sure that's a practical solution. Besides the fusion mass that's been mention, the main problem is that you need to cover the edge inside the entire hyper limit. That's is a lot of satellites even for honorverse technology and industry. Even if your willing to tolerate a extremely wide range between the satellites and risk some of your coverage. And honorverse tech isn't perfect. A lot of those satellites might maintenance a programing glitch, etc, and need maintenance. And far enough out that any maintenance, that was hands on, would be a pita.

Honorverse technology is capable of producing tens of thousands of LACs, millions of missile pods and tens of millions of missiles. This can be done and yes, all of those satellites will need to be replaced eventually. So what? All hardware has a shelf life. It doesn't stop Starlink from doing their thing with an operational lifespan of five to seven years in low planetary orbit.

With such economy of scale, they don't need to fiddle around with defective satellites. Just tap the reserve and send another one out. Retrieve the broken one whenever convenient.