Rebuilding Manticore's infrastructure

Project Gram is immortal.


It is an ideology.

penny wrote:Project Gram is immortal.


It is an ideology.

Long live Project Gram

It will live on under the care of Sonja and Shannon

Mycall4me wrote:Long live Project Gram

It will live on under the care of Sonja and Shannon

For the reason alone that it's now under Admirals Foraker and Low Delhi (Sonja), it should take a new name. Project Gram was Admiral Adcock's baby.

BTW, the first time we hear about a secret project producing Manticore goodies (though chronologically later), it's called Project Anzio, and that's when we heard about LACs and CLACs. It may be the name was recycled, as proposed, or that Project Anzio was an engineering project to actually produce the ideas that the more theoretical and further-long-term Project Gram had come up with.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:For the reason alone that it's now under Admirals Foraker and Low Delhi (Sonja), it should take a new name. Project Gram was Admiral Adcock's baby.

BTW, the first time we hear about a secret project producing Manticore goodies (though chronologically later), it's called Project Anzio, and that's when we heard about LACs and CLACs. It may be the name was recycled, as proposed, or that Project Anzio was an engineering project to actually produce the ideas that the more theoretical and further-long-term Project Gram had come up with.

I'm not sure how much of the work on the LACs and CLACs ever went through Project Gram or its possible successor black R&D programs. (And even the tech that did, like FTL or MDM, would have been handed off long before the tech windfall from Grayson inspired the CLAC concept)

Much of the key tech for the Shrike, etc. LACs (advanced fission reactors, improved compensators) came from Grayson and I don't think Manticore would have wanted to read them into Manticore's most secret, unacknowledged, black, R&D program. Also, from what little we see from House of Steel, Project Gram was working on things that wouldn't see the light of day for decades -- and even back in 1877 as they proved things were possible/useful the R&D would get very carefully handed over to one of the RMN's openly acknowledged R&D groups to complete the research and do the development on.

The LAC development wasn't the ultra-long lead time beyond bleeding edge research that Gram was designed to work on. Heck, it was only 10 years from Grayson becoming an ally until HMS Minotaur was testing the CLAC concept in the Hancock system.

Now Gram certainly had had their hands in the MDMs that Minotaur was also equipped with, as well as the FTL comms the LACs carried. But given how close those were to operational use they'd have been passed off from Project Gram many years ago.


Whatever it is that Gram (or its successor) is working on now seem like it'd be at least 10 years from appearing in the fleet. Though at least some of the things the acknowledged R&D groups are working on, which will be out sooner, would have started off as under Gram.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:BTW, why would the embargo ever be lifted? The variables behind the enactment of the embargo had increased, not lessened. And the players affected by the embargo were not any less of a neobarb than before.

Because it was very unpopular with certain large Solarian interstellar corporations, who really wanted to sell arms and technology to the Haven sector -- and who contribute non-trivially both to the League budget and to contributions to individual politicians.


It was only Manticore's strong arm tactics that got the Assembly to pass the embargo in the first place. So if the High Ridge government stopped twisting the League's arm during the ceasefire period the Assembly might well have taken the opportunity to be helpful to their large donors and removed the embargo.

And at that point the League was still assuming it was invincible, and so wouldn't perceive a security threat from allowing arms and technology sales. (Though presumably there are still rules limiting or prohibiting sale of arms and tech that are classified - so the SLN would have some control over what SLN systems its military-industrial base can export -- but that would be independent of this specific embargo)

Ok, I see my disconnect.

Upstream I stated I couldn't believe that the embargo was anything other than Solarian arrogance of wanting to prevent their superior technology from getting into the Haven Sector's hands. I can't shake that thought. But here's the thing that fuels my disconnect.

THING

Why shouldn't the SLN want to prevent the Haven Sector from getting their tech? Isn't that normal? If indeed the SLN thought their tech was so much more superior, and we known that they did, then why wouldn't they keep it classified from the Haven Sector? Shouldn't they?

It isn't like the US would sell tech to any country, even if that country is not an enemy. But because of their close proximity to the enemy and being much weaker, my enemy can just invade your country and take our tech.

So, why shouldn't there be an embargo? It isn't like the SL and Manticore have always been friends. Heck, the SLN probably has a simulation in place for attacking the MBS!

So, how could that embargo not be rooted in operational security at the end of the day?

Regardless of what a US Defense contractor may say, the US government will always restrict the sale of certain technology if it is deemed a security risk.

.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:For the reason alone that it's now under Admirals Foraker and Low Delhi (Sonja), it should take a new name. Project Gram was Admiral Adcock's baby.

BTW, the first time we hear about a secret project producing Manticore goodies (though chronologically later), it's called Project Anzio, and that's when we heard about LACs and CLACs. It may be the name was recycled, as proposed, or that Project Anzio was an engineering project to actually produce the ideas that the more theoretical and further-long-term Project Gram had come up with.

I'm not sure how much of the work on the LACs and CLACs ever went through Project Gram or its possible successor black R&D programs. (And even the tech that did, like FTL or MDM, would have been handed off long before the tech windfall from Grayson inspired the CLAC concept)

Much of the key tech for the Shrike, etc. LACs (advanced fission reactors, improved compensators) came from Grayson and I don't think Manticore would have wanted to read them into Manticore's most secret, unacknowledged, black, R&D program. Also, from what little we see from House of Steel, Project Gram was working on things that wouldn't see the light of day for decades -- and even back in 1877 as they proved things were possible/useful the R&D would get very carefully handed over to one of the RMN's openly acknowledged R&D groups to complete the research and do the development on.

The LAC development wasn't the ultra-long lead time beyond bleeding edge research that Gram was designed to work on. Heck, it was only 10 years from Grayson becoming an ally until HMS Minotaur was testing the CLAC concept in the Hancock system.

Now Gram certainly had had their hands in the MDMs that Minotaur was also equipped with, as well as the FTL comms the LACs carried. But given how close those were to operational use they'd have been passed off from Project Gram many years ago.


Whatever it is that Gram (or its successor) is working on now seem like it'd be at least 10 years from appearing in the fleet. Though at least some of the things the acknowledged R&D groups are working on, which will be out sooner, would have started off as under Gram.

I think that you have a point about the projects that Gram is working on now is concerned. Ofc who the heck knows what devious super weapons and ideas may already have been handed over to development teams? I DO think that we can all be sure that those stinking alignment bastards aren't going to like them very much

penny wrote:Upstream I stated I couldn't believe that the embargo was anything other than Solarian arrogance of wanting to prevent their superior technology from getting into the Haven Sector's hands. I can't shake that thought. But here's the thing that fuels my disconnect.

THING

Why shouldn't the SLN want to prevent the Haven Sector from getting their tech? Isn't that normal? If indeed the SLN thought their tech was so much more superior, and we known that they did, then why wouldn't they keep it classified from the Haven Sector? Shouldn't they?

They shouldn't and they usually don't. There is a list of technologies that is definitely embargoed for export. It's not even available to League members at all, only the SLN. The fact that the Haven Sector navies later had better tech and therefore didn't want the SLN one is irrelevant.

We hear about this in Shadow of Saganami, with Monica. The Indefatigable-class battlecruisers are cleared for export, but the Nevada ones aren't yet and definitely not with their current SLN weapons mix. Technodyne was selling to Monica ships it shouldn't have and with weapons it really shouldn't have, under the wraps. They did that under MAlign influence; I doubt they do that frequently or even occasionally, because it's very easy to tell an Indefatigable apart from a Nevada, so you can't keep that hidden. And of course, the governments that it would be selling to are corrupt and may leak information or try to use it to blackmail TIY.

But do note TYI had the permission to sell second- or third-gen old SLN military hardware. TYI was the single greatest supplier of those to all the system defence forces, in and out of the League. And Technodyne Industries of Yildun is headquartered in Yildun, a non-League system.

So, why shouldn't there be an embargo? It isn't like the SL and Manticore have always been friends. Heck, the SLN probably has a simulation in place for attacking the MBS!

So, how could that embargo not be rooted in operational security at the end of the day?

Regardless of what a US Defense contractor may say, the US government will always restrict the sale of certain technology if it is deemed a security risk.

.

Simple: because this is not the embargo we're talking about.

The embargo on the most advanced weapons, as I said above, was in place. A total arms and tech embargo wasn't. That's what the Cromarty government negotiated.

Comparing to the current day, the US doesn't sell military hardware to China, but it does sell a lot of tech components. The Cromarty embargo would be between the more recent embargo on sale of the most advanced chips and a total embargo on sale of any electronic component.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Simple: because this is not the embargo we're talking about.

The embargo on the most advanced weapons, as I said above, was in place. A total arms and tech embargo wasn't. That's what the Cromarty government negotiated.

Comparing to the current day, the US doesn't sell military hardware to China, but it does sell a lot of tech components. The Cromarty embargo would be between the more recent embargo on sale of the most advanced chips and a total embargo on sale of any electronic component.

I am not sure what you are saying here, the Cromarty negotiated embargo included weapons and technology. Here is the quote from the FAQs in The Rationale for the Theisman Buildup:

As far as the embargo is concerned, the only thing it ever covered was technology and weapons transfers. Since the war isn't officially over, the embargo remains in effect (another point for Pritchart to be upset over, given the RH's need to continue the rebuilding of its economy), but it's much more porous than it was, at least in non-war-fighting areas. Of course, with the proper end-user certification, that super-computer has nothing to do with fighting a war, now does it?

Note that this says the embargo was officially still in place during the restored Republic of Haven.

tlb wrote:I am not sure what you are saying here, the Cromarty negotiated embargo included weapons and technology.

I am agreeing that it is what the Cromarty-obtained embargo was, comparing to the US not selling any military hardware to China and expanding to include some tech components.

Here is the quote from the FAQs in The Rationale for the Theisman Buildup:

As far as the embargo is concerned, the only thing it ever covered was technology and weapons transfers. Since the war isn't officially over, the embargo remains in effect (another point for Pritchart to be upset over, given the RH's need to continue the rebuilding of its economy), but it's much more porous than it was, at least in non-war-fighting areas. Of course, with the proper end-user certification, that super-computer has nothing to do with fighting a war, now does it?

Note that this says the embargo was officially still in place during the restored Republic of Haven.

Thanks for finding that. It says it was still in place as late as 1915.