Allies

Fireflair wrote:Through out the series we see the Star Kingdom working to build alliances and 'defense in depth' to help them stave off the Peeps. By book 9 (Ashes of Victory) we've got Zanzibar, Alizon and several others. However, most of these systems don't have their own defense forces capable of protecting themselves, and the idea of defense in depth is being fairly seriously challenged by the idea of deep raids.

Zanzibar, in particular, gets hit multiple times, but each of the Star Kingdom's allies gets hit by raiders which require the Star Kingdom to slice off ships from other squadrons to go to their allies defense. The Peeps aren't really interested in conquering these allied star nations, they're focused on the prize; Manticore and the Manticore Wormhole Junction.

So my question is, why didn't some one suggest letting the dead weight go and have Manticore go after the Peeps only with allies who could contribute? Grayson and Erewhon being the top two which come to mind. This would get Manticore ships out of being tied up defending allies, like Alizon or Zanzibar. These allies wouldn't be targets of the Peeps and wouldn't need any protecting by Manticore if they weren't a part of the alliance. This puts more tonnage back into support of Manticore's efforts against the Peeps instead of distributing their strength in the citadel defense.

tlb wrote:

Fireflair wrote:Through out the series we see the Star Kingdom working to build alliances and 'defense in depth' to help them stave off the Peeps. By book 9 (Ashes of Victory) we've got Zanzibar, Alizon and several others. However, most of these systems don't have their own defense forces capable of protecting themselves, and the idea of defense in depth is being fairly seriously challenged by the idea of deep raids.

Zanzibar, in particular, gets hit multiple times, but each of the Star Kingdom's allies gets hit by raiders which require the Star Kingdom to slice off ships from other squadrons to go to their allies defense. The Peeps aren't really interested in conquering these allied star nations, they're focused on the prize; Manticore and the Manticore Wormhole Junction.

So my question is, why didn't some one suggest letting the dead weight go and have Manticore go after the Peeps only with allies who could contribute? Grayson and Erewhon being the top two which come to mind. This would get Manticore ships out of being tied up defending allies, like Alizon or Zanzibar. These allies wouldn't be targets of the Peeps and wouldn't need any protecting by Manticore if they weren't a part of the alliance. This puts more tonnage back into support of Manticore's efforts against the Peeps instead of distributing their strength in the citadel defense.

Consider the Yeltsin System, containing Grayson, as a case study in what Manticore was trying to do. When first approached, they were as much of a liability as Zanzibar, with barely enough strength to fend off Masada.

The problem was that neither Manticore nor the Peoples' Republic of Haven could really wage long distance war (or they felt that they could not do it). The Peeps and to a lesser extent Manticore wanted places where crippled ships could quickly be put back into service. So both worked either to gain those places for themselves or to deny them to the other.

To some extent, this was like the Japanese doctrine of garrison islands in WWII that were intended to slow the Allied advance. Eventually (I believe) your point was accepted by Manticore and they did drop all nonessential allies; as much to protect those former allies as to relieve the defensive burden on Manticore.

Theemile wrote:By the 2nd war, Manticore was doing just this. Advanced deep strike strategies had been developed by both sides, which removed the need to get close operating bases, and the navies had both developed to the point where they had the fleet train infrastructure, and had ships and crews that could support long cruises and in-ship maintenance and repair. In the first war, Haven relied on Depot Maintenance for light maintenance items, limiting their op tempo to just a few weeks/months between maintenance cycles, necessitating fleet bases close to the front line to support combat fleets.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:By the 2nd war, Manticore was doing just this. Advanced deep strike strategies had been developed by both sides, which removed the need to get close operating bases, and the navies had both developed to the point where they had the fleet train infrastructure, and had ships and crews that could support long cruises and in-ship maintenance and repair. In the first war, Haven relied on Depot Maintenance for light maintenance items, limiting their op tempo to just a few weeks/months between maintenance cycles, necessitating fleet bases close to the front line to support combat fleets.

And because Haven structured their fleet to need nearby bases they couldn't (or at least thought they couldn't) lunge straight from their pre-war positions to the Manticore Binary System.

So if Manticore didn't defend the smaller systems like Alizon and Zanzibar then Haven would have gobbled them up, built up forward bases there, and used those closer bases for more intensive operations against Grayson, or even Manticore itself.

Plus, painful as it was to rebuild their infrastructures after they got run over, all those smaller systems gave Manticore a place to bleed the initial attacks. And they weren't willing to leave those forward deployed RHN forces at their back if they'd tried a long range lunge at Haven.

The RMN fleet was a bit better at long range missions than Haven's was - but it was still largely structured as a counter to their fleet and accepting that there'd be attritional fighting over lots of systems on the way to their initial key objective (Trevor's Star) and their final objective (Haven itself). And that attritional fighting was generally at favorable ratios to Manticore - so there wasn't a lot of incentive for them to abandon what appears to be a working strategy to go for a major roll of the dice by bypassing those RHN fleet concentrations to hit something deeper.

Theemile wrote:The RMN's early war deep strike strategy was built around their BC's - not the wall. It was believed (and pre-war scuffles with 2nd and 3rd tier navies proved) that the RMN could rely on small fast BC raiding parties to hit infrastructure and convoys deep in the enemy's rear and fade quickly, outrunning an enemy's response. This would sap an enemy's offensive strength in order to protect the rear areas while tearing up their economy slowly.

What the RMN had not factored properly was the masssive #s of PRN Battleships. Almost as fast as a BC and 4x as tough, Haven had 2 BBs for every RMN BC, and the RMN deep strikes got mauled as a result.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:The RMN's early war deep strike strategy was built around their BC's - not the wall. It was believed (and pre-war scuffles with 2nd and 3rd tier navies proved) that the RMN could rely on small fast BC raiding parties to hit infrastructure and convoys deep in the enemy's rear and fade quickly, outrunning an enemy's response. This would sap an enemy's offensive strength in order to protect the rear areas while tearing up their economy slowly.

What the RMN had not factored properly was the masssive #s of PRN Battleships. Almost as fast as a BC and 4x as tough, Haven had 2 BBs for every RMN BC, and the RMN deep strikes got mauled as a result.

I do not remember any deep strikes against the Peeps and the first time we see battleships used is in Flag in Exile, where Citizen Vice Admiral Alexander Thurston planned to use them to attack Grayson.

Theemile wrote:
David discussed it on the side, and it was discussed heavily in SITS and Jayne's. The Short Story "Fanatic" has a failed raid from the Havenite side.

Theemile wrote:David discussed it on the side, and it was discussed heavily in SITS and Jayne's. The Short Story "Fanatic" has a failed raid from the Havenite side.

kzt wrote:Yeah, The RMN was big on BC raids and that was one of the few examples of how RMN doctrine failed. A division of old BBs are extraordinarily difficult for a BC squadron to deal with.

IIRC, David showed that this failed in the books, and explained to us what happened. And then he denied to us that this was a failure. Because the RMN is perfect or something.

Chapter 1 wrote:"Because the momentum is shifting." Matthews laid his tunic across his lap, extracted an old-fashioned hardcopy note pad from one pocket, and opened it to double-check the figures he'd jotted in it.
"In the war's first six months," he said, "Manticore captured nineteen Havenite star systems, including two major fleet bases. Their total capital ship losses during that time were two superdreadnoughts and five dreadnoughts, against which they destroyed forty Havenite ships of the wall. They also added thirty-one capital ships to their own order of battle—twenty-six captured units, exclusive of the eleven Admiral White Haven gave us after Third Yeltsin, and five more from new construction. That put them within roughly ninety percent of the Peeps' remaining ships of the wall, and they had the advantage of the initiative, not to mention the edge the People's Navy's confusion and shattered morale gave them.
"In the last three months, however, the RMN's captured only two systems and lost nineteen capital ships doing it—including the ten they lost at Nightingale, where they didn't take the system. The Peeps are still taking heavier losses, but remember that they have all those battleships. They may be too small for proper ships of the wall, but they provide a rear area coverage the Manties can't match without diverting dreadnoughts or superdreadnoughts, which frees a higher percentage of the Peeps' ships of the wall for front-line use. Put simply, the Peeps still have more ships to lose than Manticore does, and the war is slowing down, Your Grace. Peep resistance is stiffening, and the Manties are transferring more and more of their own strength to the front in an effort to hang onto their momentum."

Theemile wrote:
The RMN's early war deep strike strategy was built around their BC's - not the wall. It was believed (and pre-war scuffles with 2nd and 3rd tier navies proved) that the RMN could rely on small fast BC raiding parties to hit infrastructure and convoys deep in the enemy's rear and fade quickly, outrunning an enemy's response. This would sap an enemy's offensive strength in order to protect the rear areas while tearing up their economy slowly.

What the RMN had not factored properly was the masssive #s of PRN Battleships. Almost as fast as a BC and 4x as tough, Haven had 2 BBs for every RMN BC, and the RMN deep strikes got mauled as a result.