HAVEN AND SOLARIAN COOPERATION

I was just thinking about if Haven could have provided the Sollies with information regarding RMN technology and weapons performance.

I remember reading about technology transfer between them and a treaty prohibiting it.

So would, or did Haven do this? Seems to me would have been in their best interest as the Sollies were in conflict with Manticore as well.

Obviously they did not, as the Sollies were in blissful ignorance and then denial of compensator improvements, MDMs, ECW advances and LACs.

It just seems to me as if it could have made a difference, not that the Sollies could have developed and deployed new systems quickly, but at least they would have been aware of what they were going up against.

Varangian wrote:I was just thinking about if Haven could have provided the Sollies with information regarding RMN technology and weapons performance.

I remember reading about technology transfer between them and a treaty prohibiting it.

So would, or did Haven do this? Seems to me would have been in their best interest as the Sollies were in conflict with Manticore as well.

Obviously they did not, as the Sollies were in blissful ignorance and then denial of compensator improvements, MDMs, ECW advances and LACs.

It just seems to me as if it could have made a difference, not that the Sollies could have developed and deployed new systems quickly, but at least they would have been aware of what they were going up against.

The information flow between the Peoples' Republic of Haven and companies in the Solarian League (not necessarily the SLN) was two way. Manticore did try to stop it by threatening the League with limitations on the use of the wormhole, but clandestine exchanges still occurred. But at this time the Solarian League was not in conflict with Manticore.

When the conflict between Manticore and the Solarian League turned from resentment to shooting, the information transfer had already ended. This was after change in governments at both Manticore and Haven. By that point the Solarian League had nothing useful to offer Haven, partly because of the treaty with Erewhon.

This is from memory, so subject to correction.

I don't think there was any treaty or anything restricting Haven's ability to share information with the League (or its multistellars).

what there was, at least during the first war, was a League embargo on providing military tech.

Short Victorious War wrote:But the League's embargoed military technology to both of us," Parks pointed out, and O'Malley nodded. Getting that embargo in place had been one of the Star Kingdom's more effective diplomatic moves, for it certainly favored Manticore's generally superior tech base over Haven's

Haven was free to supply information - it was only providing the tech upgrade Haven was purchasing with that info (and piles of cash) that violated the embargo.

I'm not sure if that embargo technically continued during the ceasefire - but I know the tech transfers (whether open or illicit) continued.

War of Honor wrote:To be honest, Foraker's techs had needed a bit of a leg up from the Solarian League firms which had been trading military technology to Rob Pierre's People's Republic in return for combat reports and the largest payments the cash-starved Committee had been able to scrape up. But it had been a very small leg up, and Foraker felt a deep, uncomplicated sense of pride in the way her own R&D people had picked it up and run with it. She was far too self-honest to believe Haven's researchers were in the same league as Manticore's, yet they were much better than they had been. They were still playing catch-up, but they'd managed to considerably narrow the gap between themselves and their potential enemies.

Now I'm not finding the quote, but I seem to recall that the Pritchart Government later cut off that information flow to the League firms -- once that leg up had let Foraker's group leapfrog past them to SD(P)s, primitives FTL coms, MDMs, and effective LACs and CLACs. Haven had no love for how those firms had charged exorbitant fees from a Havenite government with it's back to the wall -- facing a existential threat if it couldn't close the tech gap with Manticore.

So by the time the League itself was facing Manticore Haven having finally surpassed the League's best military tech was withholding military info from them. And then, of course, before much open fighting happened and the League really realized how outclassed it now was, Oyster Bay had happened and Haven had allied themselves with Manticore and Grayson. (Hence their SD(P)s helping stare down Raging Justice)
So at that point they definitely wouldn't be selling their tech to the League.

Jonathan_S wrote:

War of Honor wrote:To be honest, Foraker's techs had needed a bit of a leg up from the Solarian League firms which had been trading military technology to Rob Pierre's People's Republic in return for combat reports and the largest payments the cash-starved Committee had been able to scrape up. But it had been a very small leg up, and Foraker felt a deep, uncomplicated sense of pride in the way her own R&D people had picked it up and run with it. She was far too self-honest to believe Haven's researchers were in the same league as Manticore's, yet they were much better than they had been. They were still playing catch-up, but they'd managed to considerably narrow the gap between themselves and their potential enemies.

Now I'm not finding the quote, but I seem to recall that the Pritchart Government later cut off that information flow to the League firms -- once that leg up had let Foraker's group leapfrog past them to SD(P)s, primitives FTL coms, MDMs, and effective LACs and CLACs. Haven had no love for how those firms had charged exorbitant fees from a Havenite government with it's back to the wall -- facing a existential threat if it couldn't close the tech gap with Manticore.

And, as your quote shows, the early, restored Republic was supplying combat reports to the League, not hardware. This is probably where League arrogance kicks in where they probably believed they didn't need any hardware because there was no way that it could be better than what they already had. Those combat reports were probably, promptly disbelieved.

They may have sent some hardware, but given that the supply that Foraker had to work with must by necessity be small, she wouldn't have sent her best. Also as a negotiating position, they would hold back the best and start with the lowest offered price. Plus, the League companies leak like a sieve, so this might tip off Manticore and the Alliance as to what the Republic had on hand.

Add to all of that the MAlign interference. We know that those combat reports barely made it to the SLN in the first place. When they began fighting the RMN, they resorted to Jayne's because their own intel on RMN was so out of date. Any hardware that may have been sent to the SLN would have also been scooped up by the MAlign agents and sent to Galton instead.


So to ask, could Haven have sent more, before it decided to ally with Manticore and against the League? Technically it could, but why would it? No military will share what they don't need to with anyone except a close ally or out of necessity. The RMN shared a lot of technology with the other Alliance members, and definitely with Grayson, but those met both criteria. The League did not meet either to Haven. Even if there had been a necessity (say, the Manty tech was too advanced even for Foraker's people), it wouldn't have made a difference, not with a) the time available and b) with MAlign interference.

War of Honor wrote:To be honest, Foraker's techs had needed a bit of a leg up from the Solarian League firms which had been trading military technology to Rob Pierre's People's Republic in return for combat reports and the largest payments the cash-starved Committee had been able to scrape up.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And, as your quote shows, the early, restored Republic was supplying combat reports to the League, not hardware. This is probably where League arrogance kicks in where they probably believed they didn't need any hardware because there was no way that it could be better than what they already had. Those combat reports were probably, promptly disbelieved.

Actually it is worse than you say, because the quote is talking about an exchange with corporations operating in the League (but maybe headquartered outside) and not with the League Navy. There is no reason for those companies to share with the Navy until they had something to sell.

Varangian wrote:I was just thinking about if Haven could have provided the Sollies with information regarding RMN technology and weapons performance.

I remember reading about technology transfer between them and a treaty prohibiting it.

So would, or did Haven do this? Seems to me would have been in their best bloxd io interest as the Sollies were in conflict with Manticore as well.

Obviously they did not, as the Sollies were in blissful ignorance and then denial of compensator improvements, MDMs, ECW advances and LACs.

It just seems to me as if it could have made a difference, not that the Sollies could have developed and deployed new systems quickly, but at least they would have been aware of what they were going up against.

It is unclear whether Haven provided the Sollies with information regarding RMN technology and weapons performance. However, it is unlikely that they did so, given the treaty prohibiting technology transfer between Haven and the Solarian League.

As you mentioned, the Sollies were in conflict with Manticore as well. However, they were in denial of compensator improvements, MDMs, ECW advances, and LACs. It is possible that if they had been aware of these technologies, it could have made a difference. However, it is also possible that they would not have been able to develop and deploy new systems quickly enough to make a significant impact on the war.

williamcastillo wrote:It is unclear whether Haven provided the Sollies with information regarding RMN technology and weapons performance. However, it is unlikely that they did so, given the treaty prohibiting technology transfer between Haven and the Solarian League.

As you mentioned, the Sollies were in conflict with Manticore as well. However, they were in denial of compensator improvements, MDMs, ECW advances, and LACs. It is possible that if they had been aware of these technologies, it could have made a difference. However, it is also possible that they would not have been able to develop and deploy new systems quickly enough to make a significant impact on the war.

I think that it is clear that the Peeps did exchange money and information with Solarian companies despite the official prohibition (Which might not have been strictly enforced given Solarian displeasure with the Manticoran pressure. Note it is NOT a treaty). At the time of these exchanges the Solarian League was NOT in conflict with Manticore and the exchanges stopped about the time Theisman ended the Peoples' Republic of Haven.

Specifically about the compensator improvements: this is one of the things that the Republic of Haven (after the reinstatement of the original constitution) gained by its treaty with Erewhon. This occurred after the end of the exchanges.