Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV

penny wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:[quote="ThinksMa
I agree about the high-reward minimum risk nature of the LD as part of their repertoire. So let's establish the fact that one LD should be able to replace an entire Eighth Fleet in rear area assaults.

How?

MAlingn missile are larger than GA missiles - their latest version only houses 6 missiles in a pod several times the size of a GA pod, and a Gtorp is several times the size of a Pod. Independant of it's theoretical size 10-25 Mtons, a LD simply can't hold more firepower than a handful of SD(p)'s max. NOT 80. Unless an LD catches a fleet sleeping (which no military planner can always count on) your comment is complete hyperbole, and not offical planning.

penny wrote:I agree about the high-reward minimum risk nature of the LD as part of their repertoire. So let's establish the fact that one LD should be able to replace an entire Eighth Fleet in rear area assaults.

Theemile wrote:How?

MAlingn missile are larger than GA missiles - their latest version only houses 6 missiles in a pod several times the size of a GA pod, and a Gtorp is several times the size of a Pod. Independant of it's theoretical size 10-25 Mtons, a LD simply can't hold more firepower than a handful of SD(p)'s max. NOT 80. Unless an LD catches a fleet sleeping (which no military planner can always count on) your comment is complete hyperbole, and not offical planning.

Because surprise is a force multiplier! Please remember Honor at Cerberus!!! Also remember how devastating a surprise sub attack can be. Factor in the destructiveness of the g-torps which won't be detected until too late. If at all.

Also consider that during Honor's raids, the enemy knew she was there and knew she was coming. They would clear for action. You don't have time to clear for action against a surprise attack from a submarine. You simply take your lumps and hope you are one of the fortunate ones who made it to the life rafts -- err, escape pods.

Although I doubt an attack from an LD will allow anyone to make it to an escape pod. Even if you are standing right beside one.

I also posited long ago that an LD will have an invisible support ship forward deploying torps to it like the SLN's new tactic. Hey, who was that who said you can learn from your enemy, and should?

Also, that is not even considering the equation if the MA develops pod-laying LDs. Or LDs tractoring pods. Even if tractoring pods slows an LD. An LD crawls anyway.

penny wrote:Also, that is not even considering the equation if the MA develops pod-laying LDs. Or LDs tractoring pods. Even if tractoring pods slows an LD. An LD crawls anyway.

Um. LDs are all pod-laying. Heck, the Sharks were pod-laying. It's just you couldn't fit even a single g-torp into a pod so the Sharks were restricted to strapping on just a few externally; while their pods were filled with Cataphracts.

The LDs have explicitly been stated to carry vastly oversized tubes to allow them to carry and launch g-torps internally. But I guess we don't know if they might also support vastly oversized pods that could hold one or more g-torps. (Though given the type of weapon they are I don't see much benefit to mounting torps in pods)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Also, that is not even considering the equation if the MA develops pod-laying LDs. Or LDs tractoring pods. Even if tractoring pods slows an LD. An LD crawls anyway.

Um. LDs are all pod-laying. Heck, the Sharks were pod-laying. It's just you couldn't fit even a single g-torp into a pod so the Sharks were restricted to strapping on just a few externally; while their pods were filled with Cataphracts.

The LDs have explicitly been stated to carry vastly oversized tubes to allow them to carry and launch g-torps internally. But I guess we don't know if they might also support vastly oversized pods that could hold one or more g-torps. (Though given the type of weapon they are I don't see much benefit to mounting torps in pods)

Damnit! Another memo I missed. I thought the LDs would deploy internal launchers only. So an LD is shitting pods of Cataphracts and they employ internal launchers for g-torps???

But about a single pod carrier. First. An apology for mixing the Ghost and the Shark. Like you do sometimes with the Detweilers.

The Sharks were jury-rigged. I expected them to be able to carry more torps once their design was ironed out. In neatly affixed rotary pods.

I was also going to suggest the Ghost could at least become a one shot "Derringer." A single Cataphract is better than nothing. LOL

But I do see a reason to place g-torps in pods, if an entire pod can be ejected and the invisible, reusable little tugs can coax the entire pod closer to the enemy or in the enemy's path before launching. Mimicking the tactic Megan Petersen employed at Hypatia. As it was with Megan, an LD can lay a pod and be long gone from the scene before it launches.

penny wrote:But I do see a reason to place g-torps in pods, if an entire pod can be ejected and the invisible, reusable little tugs can coax the entire pod closer to the enemy or in the enemy's path before launching. Mimicking the tactic Megan Petersen employed at Hypatia. As it was with Megan, an LD can lay a pod and be long gone from the scene before it launches.

But the g-torps already have endurance measured in days to weeks - and can already move invisibly across the system.

A reusable tug might buy you a higher acceleration - while its drive lasted - but at the cost of being far likely to be spotted (presuming it uses the same wedge based drive the Hasta III's tugs did). And if the LD dropped those tugs off and left then it wouldn't be around to recover the tug for reuse.

Given how long a g-torp can loiter I don't see the need to haul them across the system in pods. And given how slow they are and how much time you have to set up the attack I don't see the benefit to mass launching them from pods.
And pods are bulkier than bare missiles -- yes you can dump them out faster than you can empty your magazines; but a magazine the size of your pod bay can carry more rounds. So podding the g-torps would reduce the number that an LD could potentially carry.

So that's why I'm not seeing the benefit of podding torps. (Edit - except, maybe, for system defense use; where the pod could protect a torp from long term exposure to solar wind, flares, particles and micrometeorites -- but that's a special case for when a weapon needs to float out there for many months at a time between servicing)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:But I do see a reason to place g-torps in pods, if an entire pod can be ejected and the invisible, reusable little tugs can coax the entire pod closer to the enemy or in the enemy's path before launching. Mimicking the tactic Megan Petersen employed at Hypatia. As it was with Megan, an LD can lay a pod and be long gone from the scene before it launches.

But the g-torps already have endurance measured in days to weeks - and can already move invisibly across the system.

A reusable tug might buy you a higher acceleration - while its drive lasted - but at the cost of being far likely to be spotted (presuming it uses the same wedge based drive the Hasta III's tugs did). And if the LD dropped those tugs off and left then it wouldn't be around to recover the tug for reuse.

Given how long a g-torp can loiter I don't see the need to haul them across the system in pods. And given how slow they are and how much time you have to set up the attack I don't see the benefit to mass launching them from pods.
And pods are bulkier than bare missiles -- yes you can dump them out faster than you can empty your magazines; but a magazine the size of your pod bay can carry more rounds. So podding the g-torps would reduce the number that an LD could potentially carry.

So that's why I'm not seeing the benefit of podding torps. (Edit - except, maybe, for system defense use; where the pod could protect a torp from long term exposure to solar wind, flares, particles and micrometeorites -- but that's a special case for when a weapon needs to float out there for many months at a time between servicing)

I see your point, but it doesn't have to carry many of them. Like the few old-fashioned nukes stocked aboard ship.

Anyway, I was thinking of utilizing the pods as a life-saving diversionary tactic. Think about the movies when someone hiding is about to be discovered and they throw a rock in the opposite direction to distract and lure them away from their location.

I don't know if that tactic has a name, so I'll just call it the rock&bait tactic.

I forgot to add the pod would be ejected by a mass driver in the rock&bait.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But the g-torps already have endurance measured in days to weeks - and can already move invisibly across the system.

A reusable tug might buy you a higher acceleration - while its drive lasted - but at the cost of being far likely to be spotted (presuming it uses the same wedge based drive the Hasta III's tugs did). And if the LD dropped those tugs off and left then it wouldn't be around to recover the tug for reuse.

Given how long a g-torp can loiter I don't see the need to haul them across the system in pods. And given how slow they are and how much time you have to set up the attack I don't see the benefit to mass launching them from pods.
And pods are bulkier than bare missiles -- yes you can dump them out faster than you can empty your magazines; but a magazine the size of your pod bay can carry more rounds. So podding the g-torps would reduce the number that an LD could potentially carry.

So that's why I'm not seeing the benefit of podding torps. (Edit - except, maybe, for system defense use; where the pod could protect a torp from long term exposure to solar wind, flares, particles and micrometeorites -- but that's a special case for when a weapon needs to float out there for many months at a time between servicing)

I see your point, but it doesn't have to carry many of them. Like the few old-fashioned nukes stocked aboard ship.

Anyway, I was thinking of utilizing the pods as a life-saving diversionary tactic. Think about the movies when someone hiding is about to be discovered and they throw a rock in the opposite direction to distract and lure them away from their location.

I don't know if that tactic has a name, so I'll just call it the rock&bait tactic.

I forgot to add the pod would be ejected by a mass driver in the rock&bait.

But to be a distraction the enemy has to notice it.

If you had a pod that carried a g-torp and could get it 'over that a way' before the g-torp launched it still couldn't distract the enemy until the g-torp to close enough to be picked up; or close enough to fired its graser. Given their low accel that'd take a while - and they'd still have no idea where it came from. Seems like you could just as easily make such an attack with a tube launch g-torp that snuck up on them.

A pod (or more) of Cataphracts would seem a much more useful diversion to focus an enemy away from you. They're highly visible, so they'd distract the enemy the moment they left the pod, and the enemy would need to turn and start launching CMs and deploying jammers, decoys, etc. All of which would not only focus their attention away from you and towards the Cataphract but would also put out enough noise to make it harder for any sensors still pointed your way to notice you slip further away.

Theemile wrote:How?

MAlingn missile are larger than GA missiles - their latest version only houses 6 missiles in a pod several times the size of a GA pod, and a Gtorp is several times the size of a Pod. Independant of it's theoretical size 10-25 Mtons, a LD simply can't hold more firepower than a handful of SD(p)'s max. NOT 80. Unless an LD catches a fleet sleeping (which no military planner can always count on) your comment is complete hyperbole, and not offical planning.

I'll agree with penny, but only because I'm agreeing very tangetially. The LD's mission in rear area attacks wouldn't be like Honor's. The only thing they'd have in common is attacking rear area and attempting to destroy infrastructure in order to force the defenders to deploy defensive assets and/or destroy productive capacity.

The LD's strategy would be just like in Oyster Bay: translate far out (maybe a light-day or two) so that it would be ignored, move in under stealth, launch a brace of torpedoes, provide final targetting data while passing at high speed, then translate out ASAP. That's a likely scenario because in those systems the hyper detection arrays aren't going to be as sensitive as those around the capitals, plus you can always keep fooling the defenders with scouting missions. The defenders aren't going to be able to investigate every footprint and, by construction, don't have the mobile assets to do so anyway.

And if we consider that Oyster Bay was originally planned to use those LDs, it makes perfect sense that, conversely, this is the type of action they were designed for.

The problem I have is of cost/benefit. You can trash all those rear-area systems and not make a dent in the GA's productive capacity and war-fighting resources, let alone the League's. You can attempt to force them to divert resources, like Cutworm was trying to (and partially succeeding), but as we've seen, you can effectively mousetrap the attacking force, especially as the number of targets will dwindle.

That leaves committing atrocities to inspire terror on the enemy.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:True.

And even the Sharks had a bodged on jerry rigged external mount for carrying their (handful of) g-torps.

What I was trying to say was that the Ghosts seemed far too small for any similar bodge job -- that I'd be shocked if there was any way to externally strap on even a single g-torp.
But I wasn't so clear on that. oops.

No you were clear, I was just emphasizing that the Ghosts are just NOT an offensive platform, nor are they intended to be.

There is nothing to say that ghost can't be followed around by a 'loyal wingman' of two G-torps...

kzt wrote:No you were clear, I was just emphasizing that the Ghosts are just NOT an offensive platform, nor are they intended to be.

There is nothing to say that ghost can't be followed around by a 'loyal wingman' of two G-torps...[/quote]
Sure - if you have a big ship able to launch the g-torps they should have enough endurance to tag along after the Ghost.

And since Ghosts are supposed to act in some way to assist in forward fire control (or at least the remote relay platforms they dropped at Manticore were) they probably have the tac systems to order nearby g-torps after a target they identify.


Though if you're doing an infrastructure raid like that why do you even need the LD? Send in a freighter, kick the Ghosts out of one bay (like was done to get them into Manticore) kick a pile of g-torps out another, and then proceed on your way. A week or so later everything blows up and the Ghosts self-extract and begin the long flight home.