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Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV

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Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by penny   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:44 pm

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submarine warfare




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-End Around (submarine tactic)


wiki wrote:The end around was a World War II submarine tactic used when the position of a submarine (relative to a potential target) did not allow the submarine to mount an immediate attack. The submarine's crew estimated the enemy's bearing, heading, and speed, remaining submerged until out of the enemy's visual range. The submarine then surfaced and proceeded at maximum speed to a position in front of the target, near the target's predicted course but remaining out of view. The submarine would then submerge, approach, and attack.


The location from which a submarine could attack varied mostly according to the relative top speeds of the attacker and its target. Diesel-electric-powered submarines in the Second World War were typically capable of 18-23 knots on the surface under diesel power and up to 9 knots underwater, where they were restricted (if lacking a snorkel) to battery power. Battle fleets in World War II might have a top speed of up to 30 knots, making it difficult for submarines to achieve attack position. A convoy of freighters or tankers typically proceeded at up to 10 knots. Submarines, especially when submerged, were consequently sometimes slower than their prey. Attack opportunities would also be lost if the target detected the submarine and altered course to avoid attack.


Execution

To attack, a sub usually had to get ahead of its target: the end around was one solution to this problem. If a submarine couldn't attack due to unfavorable positioning, its crew determined the target's course and speed, then calculated a potential torpedo firing point. The end around might then proceed as follows.


- A two-attack end around maneuver




. [/img]


1. The submarine attempts an initial attack. If spotted by the target or escorts, the sub then usually submerges.

2. The submarine moves away from the target (to get out of visual range), then surfaces.

3. The submarine proceeds at best speed to overtake and pass the target on a parallel course, using the curvature of the Earth, darkness, and weather events (such as rain, snow, and fog) to stay out of the target's view.

After gaining position ahead of the target, the submarine approaches, readies torpedoes and calculates an optimal attack.

4. The submarine executes the next attack, either while surfaced or submerged.

The process can be repeated as long as the sub is able to do so.

The end around tactic was useful largely because of submarines' low freeboard, which made them less visible than much-taller merchantmen and warships. Using the targets' upperworks and exhaust smoke to estimate and maintain proper distance, a skilled sub commander could maintain a close watch on enemy ships while keeping his own vessel unseen.


Other considerations

A modification to this tactic incorporated the night surface attack, where the submarine remained surfaced. This variation allowed the submarine to take advantage of its higher surface speed during the actual attack, but increased the likelihood of pre-attack detection, which in turn could result in a counterattack by opposing escorts and the targets turning, thus spoiling the attack. Surface attacks could be executed in daylight or to facilitate an attack using the sub's deck gun, again with added risk.

As a defense, ships in wartime can adopt zig-zag sailing patterns rather than practicing more-efficient great-circle navigation. Sailing in zig-zags made computing a target angle more difficult for the submarine crew, especially if the pattern was irregular. Instead of repetitively varying a 90° base course ten degrees either way (80°, 100°, 80°, 100°), a good commander practices irregular course changes: first 80°, then 110°, 95°, 75°, etc. Irregular zig-zagging obscures the target's base course, making interception harder to calculate and complicating the target solution. On the negative side, zig-zags slow a ship's progress to its destination, allowing the sub to overtake more quickly.



- Submarine Approach and Attack Tactics


CAVEAT:
  • The computing behemoth at the core of the LDs is centuries beyond the targeting data computer (TDC), running this ancient state_of-the-art beast.

  • The (TDC) aboard the old sub was state-of-the-art in it's day. But it could only target one ship at a time, with never before dreamt accuracy of success rate of the LD's behemoth.

  • The behemoths are selecting all targets simultaneously. The sitting ducks that are Home Fleet will collectively go BOOM in a perfectly synchronized symphony of explosions.

  • BEWARE: The MA may use their ROOKS (FORTS) in a middle and end game fashion.


In summary: Everyone is trying to apply traditional warship tactics to this enemy. If the GA makes the same mistake -- and a lot of them will -- then they are dead meat.

When submarine warfare first hit the scene, the subs were devastating, The tactics a sub uses are out of the ordinary. The ships had to adjust to a new way of thinking and tactic.


Submarine warfare isn't just a term.

Most of the time this foe has the luxury of sitting in space and devising his plan. Imagine what an NFL quarterback can do with all the time in the world to stand in the huddle and scheme. And plot - vectors. Now consider the opposing team doesn't even know your team is in a huddle and calling the play. The enemy also doesn't know that you've broken out of the huddle and are lining up on the ball. RMN targets is the ball.

Many of you don't realize how devastating the LDs will be. You can't give a computer all the time in the world to plot vectors. With the least number of variables. Any prey that an LD stalks is completely oblivious. Making every launch a success. Completely oblivious means it also isn't maneuvering. Which means it isn't executing evasive maneuvers. The GTs won't even be contested. Point defense won't even fire. That means, if twenty GTs will mission kill an enemy unit, thirty per ship ought to be overkill.

If one of these things gets into your system, you better find it. Because it's going to fuck something up.

If one of these things is in your system you better get it the hell out. Because it is going to fuck something up.

And the enemy doesn't know you're huddling. He thinks you're in the locker room. In your own system.

These things have the ability to make a lot of stuff, be it warships or infrastructure or both. Go. Boom.

These things are a menace to society.
If one slips into your system,
You better find it.

Or your first warning will be . . .

- flaming datum -
ImageImageImage


In Summary: One LD can hit an awful lot of targets by itself. It's opponent doesn't even know it's there. Therefore, the target isn't running, nor is it evading. If an LD is allowed to maneuver into its most optimum firing position - ranging on each ship - its missiles can be perfectly synchronised. Merry Christmas Wesley's. Think of it as Cerberrus all over again, but on steroids. These things are going to garner a much deserved reputation of fear and panic.

They will utilize immensely capable computing behemoths to execute a deadly ballet of synchronized attacks.

MaLign tactics utilize the element of surprise.
surprise = 2 X [force multiplier]

These computers have lots of time. You can't give computers lots of time, and less variables. You can't beat it if you do. Like the electronic chess games.


I have been told that warfare is not a chess match.

TRUE/FALSE

1. Every war is a chess match.
2. All Generals play chess.

If you don't see every battle as a chess match, you've already lost against this opponent.


You are going against Alphas. Every piece belonging to the enemy is an Honor Harrington. Certainly, if you hyper into the shark infested waters at Darius, know that you are up against the many clones of Honor.


Celery: Honor can't do math. That will be a plus against the MA. There will be a lot of variables to compute. The average tactician will be sorely outclassed against an opponent unleashing a brand new tactical warfare onto the Galaxy, using unprecedented computer technology and intervention. Honor won't be able to juggle the math that these behemoths are producing. But neither can any mere mortal. Computers are needed.

However, although Honor can't do math, her kinesthetic sense overcompensates for it. Honor sees the gist of the problem in her head, much faster and efficient than any computer. The computer is juggling algorithms. Honor is juggling concepts. The computer loses by a long shot.


When you're out on exercises, you're in Shark infested waters. It may be better to remain in orbit. LOL





WOLFPACK [[[Tactic]]]

HAPPYImage HUNTING
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by penny   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:21 pm

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I suggested in another thread that the LDs will operate as a wolfpack, similar to the tactic used by the Germans in their submarine warfare. Wolfpacks usually operated in packs of three.

The LDs will have to communicate in some form or fashion if they are to operate as a pack of wolves, as I posited they would do some time ago. In TEiF, whisker laser is used by Galton's drones to communicate with the OWPs. It is impossible to detect whisker laser unless a drone gets in the path of the signal.

One possibility open to the LDs is to utilize preprogrammed locations while defending Darius. That would enable the LDs to know where the others are located. Maneuvering would be accomplished by a single or more LDs while a single LD remains stationary. The stationary LD will then receive position updates of the other LDs then it can also move. Maneuvering via one LD at a time.




But alas, the GA introduced Bloodhounds into the mix. These are parasite drones that can be deployed by Ghostrider drones. It could be that the author does not intend for the GA to develop a spider drive detector and the GA will have to rely on other means of detection which would include triangulation of detected signals. That would make things interesting.

Or, rather, a great big hulking spider-drive detector may be tethered to the MBS, and other systems of the GA.


****** *

I was talking to one of my friends who drove an 18-whseler for years during the peak of the CB (citizen's band) radio craze, and he was waxing nostalgic about those days.

The LDs will have to keep any communication short and simple, as my friend says CB speak is also kept short and simple as well - just in case the Bear is listening.

So I thought hmmm... the MA might adopt it for LD to LD whisker communication. Trying to map CB codes onto submarine warfare is humorous, but worthy of consideration.

For instance. A 10-1 is telling the other LD his signal is weak.

A 10-3 is an order to go silent. Probably drones detected. I can find an analog for each one of them.



10-0 Use Caution
10-1 Weak Signal
10-2 Good Signal
10-3 Stop Transmitting
10-4 Affirmative
10-5 Relay to/from
10-6 Busy
10-7 Out of Service
10-8 In Service
10-9 Say Again
10-10 Negative
10-11 Employee Number
10-12 Stand By
10-13 Weather Conditions
10-14 Message / Information
10-15 Message Delivered
10-16 Reply to Message
10-17 En route
10-18 Urgent
10-19 In Contact
10-20 Location
10-21 Call by phone
10-22 Disregard
10-23 Arrived at Scene
10-24 Assignment Completed
10-25 Report to " "
10-26 ETA
10-27 Drivers License Inquiry
10-28 Vehicle Inquiry
10-29 Records Check
10-30 Danger
10-31 Pick-up
10-32 " " Units Needed
10-33 Need Immediate Assistance
10-34 Current Time
10-40 Fight in Progress
10-41 Beginning Tour of Duty
10-42 Ending Tour of Duty
10-43 In Pursuit
10-44 Riot
10-45 Bomb Threat
10-46 Bank Alarm
10-47 Complete Assignment Quickly
10-48 Detaining Suspect, Expedite
10-49 Drag Racing
10-50 Vehicle Accident, PD, PI, F
10-51 Dispatch Wrecker
10-52 Dispatch Ambulance
10-53 Road Blocked
10-54 Hit and Run Accident, PD, PI, F
10-55 Intoxicated Driver
10-56 Intoxicated Pedestrian
10-57 Request BT Operator
10-58 Direct Traffic
10-59 Escort
10-60 Suspicious Vehicle
10-61 Stopping Suspicious Vehicle
10-62 Breaking and Entering (B&E) in Progress
10-63 Prepare to Receive an Assignment
10-64 Crime in Progress
10-65 Armed Robbery
10-66 Notify Medical Examiner
10-67 Report of Death
10-68 Livestock in Roadway
10-69 Advise Telephone Number
10-70 Improper Parked Vehicle
10-71 Improper Use of Radio
10-72 Prisoner in Custody
10-73 Mental Subject
10-74 Prison/Jail Break
10-75 Wanted or Stolen
10-76 Prowler
10-77 Direct Traffic at Fire Scene
10-80 Fire Alarm
10-81 Nature of Fire
10-82 Fire in Progress
10-83 Smoke Visible
10-84 No Smoke Visible
10-85 Respond without Blue Lights/Siren
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The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:27 pm

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Honor could do math, the problem she had was lack of confidence; she would have flunked out, if she had not eventually passed the tests.

The "End Around" worked for submarines in WWII, because their surface speed was greater than that of the cargo ships. This not true for the LD's against any wedge ship in normal space.

In hyper space, we expect they will incorporate the streak drive and perhaps a compensator. However in those places where missiles work the spider drive is very much slower, so we will have to see the results.
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:39 pm

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penny wrote:I suggested in another thread that the LDs will operate as a wolfpack, similar to the tactic used by the Germans in their submarine warfare. Wolfpacks usually operated in packs of three.

The LDs will have to communicate in some form or fashion if they are to operate as a pack of wolves, as I posited they would do some time ago. In TEiF, whisker laser is used by Galton's drones to communicate with the OWPs. It is impossible to detect whisker laser unless a drone gets in the path of the signal.

One possibility open to the LDs is to utilize preprogrammed locations while defending Darius. That would enable the LDs to know where the others are located. Maneuvering would be accomplished by a single or more LDs while a single LD remains stationary. The stationary LD will then receive position updates of the other LDs then it can also move. Maneuvering via one LD at a time.




But alas, the GA introduced Bloodhounds into the mix. These are parasite drones that can be deployed by Ghostrider drones. It could be that the author does not intend for the GA to develop a spider drive detector and the GA will have to rely on other means of detection which would include triangulation of detected signals. That would make things interesting.

Or, rather, a great big hulking spider-drive detector may be tethered to the MBS, and other systems of the GA.


****** *

I was talking to one of my friends who drove an 18-whseler for years during the peak of the CB (citizen's band) radio craze, and he was waxing nostalgic about those days.

The LDs will have to keep any communication short and simple, as my friend says CB speak is also kept short and simple as well - just in case the Bear is listening.

So I thought hmmm... the MA might adopt it for LD to LD whisker communication. Trying to map CB codes onto submarine warfare is humorous, but worthy of consideration.

For instance. A 10-1 is telling the other LD his signal is weak.

A 10-3 is an order to go silent. Probably drones detected. I can find an analog for each one of them.

<snip>



I can't speak to the current state, but when ELF (Extremely low frequency radio) came out in the 80s, and receivers were deployed on submarines, and subs shipped with one time code books - the ELF codes were short, iirc being a 6-8 characters in a code group, with the first few indicating the receiver, and the rest being a set of randomized codes for that specific unit indicating complex commands in the code book.

No other sub could read the code because each had separate, randomized command codes in their code book. Capturing a codebook would only break the current mission's security, as each ship received a unique, fresh, randomized codebook and the start of every voyage.


So yes, this concept of concentrated coded commands is used by militaries frequently.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:53 pm

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Theemile wrote:I can't speak to the current state, but when ELF (Extremely low frequency radio) came out in the 80s, and receivers were deployed on submarines, and subs shipped with one time code books - the ELF codes were short, iirc being a 6-8 characters in a code group, with the first few indicating the receiver, and the rest being a set of randomized codes for that specific unit indicating complex commands in the code book.

No other sub could read the code because each had separate, randomized command codes in their code book. Capturing a codebook would only break the current mission's security, as each ship received a unique, fresh, randomized codebook and the start of every voyage.


So yes, this concept of concentrated coded commands is used by militaries frequently.


Also "necessity is the mother of invention" because the bandwidth in ELF is so low that you can't transmit anything except pre-arranged commands.

That is not the case with whisker lasers.

The other thing is that the ELF transmitters were and are not hidden. Everyone on the planet knows or can find where they are, because they're massive. The receivers are hidden and can't transmit back. That means this is not a good analogy for LDs, because it doesn't enable bi-directional communication and thus coordination (you end up with the Two Generals Problem).

Moreover, this only allows communication while the transmitter isn't blown up to smithereens. This allows for using overt transmissions in defence of a system (like Darius) but not for attacking somewhere in stealth. The transmitters would get taken out after the first transmission, given that 3- and 4-stage MDMs have unlimited range. You can't use low-power because we're talking about distances of light-minutes. The attackers would need to deploy dozens of such transmitters ahead of time, each of which isn't a good defensive platform (it's not a warship), and you may not want to have the best stealth on them because, well, you're transmitting so holding up a big "I'm here, shoot me" sign.

And you don't want to transmit back to them, even with whisker lasers, once they begin transmitting because the enemy now knows they're there and they may have vectored a listening unit that will spot the mobile, stealth units and unravel the web. That's even got a codename: Lorelei (and Silver Bullet).

So I don't see such a technique used in attacking. And I don't see it in defending either because you don't need to hide the transmitters on the planet.
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:01 pm

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FTL transmitters are another story. The physics we know about them is that you can't localise the GA FTL transmitters enough to shoot at them. You can tell there are transmissions, but you can't read them and you can't find the drones.

But that's GA tech. Haven's FTL transmitters were much cruder. Effective still, but cruder. The MAlign is much further behind, so this will depend on how many years they're given to improve the tech (which is how many years the GA will have to improve their detectors).

Also remember that perfect localisation may not be necessary for targetting a ship. The fact that drones couldn't be targeted is partly due to their small size. An LD is bigger by 4 orders of magnitude or more. And it's also a much bigger prize: shooting down a drone that is capable of 30,000 gravities may be a waste of missile, but shooting a capital ship is worth expending 10,000 missiles. It's probably difficult to find a drone with another drone, but finding a ship?

And the MAN knows they can't outrun a search party with the spider drive. They also don't know if there are drones nearby that will lock on them within 30 seconds. So if they transmit, they had better be ready to translate out of the system.
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by penny   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:22 pm

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Short and sweet codes are for the sole purpose of limiting detection. Quick bursts. I think the receiving sub should respond in a short burst. Unless the sender sends a second burst asap, like a 10-0 requesting caution or for the sub to go silent.

But wolfpacks always ran silent. I read somewhere that they were punished for unnecessary chatter. But when they have slotted into position and are ready to attack, that is when they communicate. In WWII the enemy was going to detect torpedo traces anyway. But whisker laser is relatively safe unless a drone happens to be lucky. That won't be a problem if the LD can detect GA drones. In any case the Two General's Problem shouldn't apply. If a 10-4 isn't received, assume the message didn't get through or whatever other MA contingencies.

When in the same system together, the Two General's Problem isn't as serious considering the short distances and the quickness of the communication. Unless one LD is way the hell out system. But wolfpacks operate in relatively close mutual support.
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:24 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:I can't speak to the current state, but when ELF (Extremely low frequency radio) came out in the 80s, and receivers were deployed on submarines, and subs shipped with one time code books - the ELF codes were short, iirc being a 6-8 characters in a code group, with the first few indicating the receiver, and the rest being a set of randomized codes for that specific unit indicating complex commands in the code book.

No other sub could read the code because each had separate, randomized command codes in their code book. Capturing a codebook would only break the current mission's security, as each ship received a unique, fresh, randomized codebook and the start of every voyage.


So yes, this concept of concentrated coded commands is used by militaries frequently.


Also "necessity is the mother of invention" because the bandwidth in ELF is so low that you can't transmit anything except pre-arranged commands.

That is not the case with whisker lasers.

The other thing is that the ELF transmitters were and are not hidden. Everyone on the planet knows or can find where they are, because they're massive. The receivers are hidden and can't transmit back. That means this is not a good analogy for LDs, because it doesn't enable bi-directional communication and thus coordination (you end up with the Two Generals Problem).

Moreover, this only allows communication while the transmitter isn't blown up to smithereens. This allows for using overt transmissions in defence of a system (like Darius) but not for attacking somewhere in stealth. The transmitters would get taken out after the first transmission, given that 3- and 4-stage MDMs have unlimited range. You can't use low-power because we're talking about distances of light-minutes. The attackers would need to deploy dozens of such transmitters ahead of time, each of which isn't a good defensive platform (it's not a warship), and you may not want to have the best stealth on them because, well, you're transmitting so holding up a big "I'm here, shoot me" sign.

And you don't want to transmit back to them, even with whisker lasers, once they begin transmitting because the enemy now knows they're there and they may have vectored a listening unit that will spot the mobile, stealth units and unravel the web. That's even got a codename: Lorelei (and Silver Bullet).

So I don't see such a technique used in attacking. And I don't see it in defending either because you don't need to hide the transmitters on the planet.


My point wasn't so much the ELF radio, but the condensed command codes used on them. Concepts like Penny's 10-## codes are a standard part of military communications, and the concept has subsequently been taken several steps further.

Before the ELF, Spark Gap radios had a low pulse rate and used variants of Morse with code books - usually with condensed commands. In the age of sail, squadrons and fleets sailed with custom code books with Semaphore and flags denoting maneuver and warfare commands.

In the Honorverse, the early FTL had similiar low pulse rates - condensed codes were used to relay condensed RD findings prior to the raw data being sent via normal space waves.

So such codes are nothing new - and we've already seen varients used in the Honorverse.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by penny   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:39 pm

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tlb wrote:Honor could do math, the problem she had was lack of confidence; she would have flunked out, if she had not eventually passed the tests.

The "End Around" worked for submarines in WWII, because their surface speed was greater than that of the cargo ships. This not true for the LD's against any wedge ship in normal space.

In hyper space, we expect they will incorporate the streak drive and perhaps a compensator. However in those places where missiles work the spider drive is very much slower, so we will have to see the results.

The "End Around" works perfectly in the Wormhole Assault: MA Style thread where the LDs are utilizing the intense gravity of the WH itself as "the horizon."

And do consider that in the end game where much tonnage has been destroyed, the LD may have isolated a lone fort. That fort is much slower than the LD.
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Re: Adapting Wolfpack Tactics to HV
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:40 pm

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penny wrote:Short and sweet codes are for the sole purpose of limiting detection. Quick bursts. I think the receiving sub should respond in a short burst. Unless the sender sends a second burst asap, like a 10-0 requesting caution or for the sub to go silent.


Any strong enough EM transmission is sufficient for localisation. If the enemy has two receivers, they can determine with a single transmission that the transmitter lies on a circle (the intersection of two spherical surfaces). With three receivers, that's reduced to two points. It won't be perfect like that, but fuzzy blobs a few hundred thousand km in diameter... which is more than enough to vector a drone to or send a salvo of missiles at.

If you reply, that serves as yet another datum in finding both transmitters because of causality: you know the receiver must be inside the light cone of the transmitter because it received the transmission in the first place. That means replies must be delayed and randomised in time, by large margins (several minutes).

The problem is not duration, it's power. Some spread-spectrum technique could be used to spread the power over a large portion of the spectrum so it's treated like noise by the enemy, but a) there's no guarantee they can't detect the transmission even if they can't decode it and b) there's no reason to limit the bandwidth if spread spectrum works.

But wolfpacks always ran silent. I read somewhere that they were punished for unnecessary chatter. But when they have slotted into position and are ready to attack, that is when they communicate. In WWII the enemy was going to detect torpedo traces anyway. But whisker laser is relatively safe unless a drone happens to be lucky. That won't be a problem if the LD can detect GA drones. In any case the Two General's Problem shouldn't apply. If a 10-4 isn't received, assume the message didn't get through or whatever other MA contingencies.


I agree with "are ready to attack, that is when they communicate." At that point, you they didn't need to keep the stealth, they could reveal themselves and cause the Brown Alarms to go off in their victims.

For an LD wolfpack, this implies they have an escape solution before the enemy can vector anyone to shoot at them. They're either out of the hyperlimit or close to it anyway, or they are assured of complete victory with a single attack that there will be no one left to threaten them.

But at that point, why bother with short codes? There's no reason not to use whisker lasers at that point.

Don't get me wrong: having pre-established command conditions is a good thing. The commanders of each ship knowing what the other will do and what the situation is with complete and succinct transmissions is better than a back-and-forth. Unless they have stealth FTL, whisker lasers are limited by the speed of light and a round-trip communication would be in the order of minutes.

When in the same system together, the Two General's Problem isn't as serious considering such short distances and the quickness of the communication. Unless one LD is way the hell out system. But wolfpacks operate in relatively close mutual support.


All the more reason to just use lasers.
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