Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 127 guests

Cataphract development history

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Cataphract development history
Post by wyrm   » Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:42 pm

wyrm
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:18 pm

In To End In Fire (May 1924 PD) we are told that the GA's friends in the League aren't able to get details of the Cataphract's development because Yildun hasn't ratified the new Constitution.

I'd have thought that a simple statement from Kingsford that "Yildun, being an unfriendly planet outside the League, companies registered in Yildun (and any subsidiaries inside the League) will not be allowed to bid for any contract rebuilding the League Navy" would cause a rapid re-evaluation of Technodyne's non-cooperation. Technodyne would be facing bankruptcy and Yildun's economy facing collapse.
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:59 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5082
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

wyrm wrote:In To End In Fire (May 1924 PD) we are told that the GA's friends in the League aren't able to get details of the Cataphract's development because Yildun hasn't ratified the new Constitution.

I'd have thought that a simple statement from Kingsford that "Yildun, being an unfriendly planet outside the League, companies registered in Yildun (and any subsidiaries inside the League) will not be allowed to bid for any contract rebuilding the League Navy" would cause a rapid re-evaluation of Technodyne's non-cooperation. Technodyne would be facing bankruptcy and Yildun's economy facing collapse.


What can I say - "Politics, man... Politics....". Totally agreed, but TDY does so much work for the SLN, the former scandel and fallout from the Monica debacle just shows that TDY is just too big to fail - especially when the SLN Knows it needs to rebuild it's entire force just to get near parity with the GA, and it needs to do it in a short period of time.

TDY has leverage over the SLN, and the SL is hobbled and needs what TDY's got. Should the SLN break it's dependence - oh heck yes, but that will take time the SLN doesn't have right now.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:23 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4169
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

wyrm wrote:In To End In Fire (May 1924 PD) we are told that the GA's friends in the League aren't able to get details of the Cataphract's development because Yildun hasn't ratified the new Constitution.

I'd have thought that a simple statement from Kingsford that "Yildun, being an unfriendly planet outside the League, companies registered in Yildun (and any subsidiaries inside the League) will not be allowed to bid for any contract rebuilding the League Navy" would cause a rapid re-evaluation of Technodyne's non-cooperation. Technodyne would be facing bankruptcy and Yildun's economy facing collapse.


Maybe, but the SL may be facing bigger hardship than Technodyne. TIY has other customers besides the SLN, though it's likely going to be the single largest one. There's also likely going to be other business units selling to the League besides to the SLN: just think of all the SDFs in all the SL members and soon-to-be ex-members. There's a huge market for TIY and Kingsford can't order other League entities, the members and especially the non-members. TIY's problem is that it doesn't have anything non-obsolete to sell right now, aside from what it got from the MAlign in the first place (the Cataphracts).

Meanwhile, TIY is the single largest supplier for the SLN and I doubt they diversified, because of corruption. It was in TIY's best interests to ensure it always won contracts, so it bribed and bought officials who would award contracts. That way, it would have long driven any competitors out of the market (aside from maybe a few token ones) and would then be able to charge whatever it wanted via its near-monopolistic position.

Kingsford saying "we're not going to buy from TIY" would then be "we're not going to buy." He may not be able to afford that.
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:08 pm

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

Technodyne is supposed to be the developer, designer and manufacture of the Cataphracts but the READERS know that most of that is actually the Alignment's doing. So, even if Technnodyne were to provide anything it is unlikely to go back to the root development stage- and that would trigger some interest by the GA

Besides, the SLN -even with all the graft and corruption- would still have had to get presentations and demonstrator materials and manuals for what was ultimately delivered to the SLN for the various models of Cataphracts. This doesn't even begin to include the weapons/spare parts, diagnostic equipment etc which are already in the hands of the SLN and will show some practical evolution of the missiles etc. That doesn't even include whatever Cataphracts (and materials/ ancillary electronics etc) that were captured with the People's Republic of Haven Navy in Exile from the attack on Torch.

So there is at least some paper trail (even if electronics)of what the first "demonstrator" missiles delivery to the SLN and the later changes were. If you have some determined forensic accountants, they might even dig out where the late deliveries of all those newer Cataprhacts to the Raging Justice attack on Manticore were supposedly from and who delivered them,.....and when you start leaving leaving a document trail of lies, you risk problems,

What is going to be a much more effective approach to Technodyne is requiring development information on the new things that the SLN is going to need.
Remember that they have had a quite effective lesson in how all of their existing ships and probably much of their weaponry is now vastly out performed by the GA stuff and Technodyne is going to have to do a really good job of selling whatever they want to present so showing how and why the newest things being sold are going to provide what SLN needs.

At the same time, anybody fielding Cataphracts is going- or should - come under a close look at when and what versions they got them. There are usually contractual limitations on selling various tech to other people than your customer. Like the kind of thing that Technodyne did when working with the Alignment to provide the former BCs to Monica.

Be real interesting when Kingsford and his people start asking questions about the design history of the "better than the old stuff" that the warship people are going to want to sell them.
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:12 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4169
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

I also think the ship has sailed now. We know and they know that the Cataphracts didn't come from Technodyne. Zilwicki & co did figure out that they had to have come from a different source to have reached Filareta before the launching of the Operation Raging Justice. That's how they found Galton in the first place.

Now that the GA has conquered Galton, they will know the source of those Cataphracts. They will have the industrial plants and plans for them. And the MAlign intended them to have that, but not the plans for the Ninurta.

So Kingsford gains nothing from forcing TIY to attempt to produce some documentation he knows doesn't exist.
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by jtg452   » Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:14 am

jtg452
Captain of the List

Posts: 471
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:46 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote: ... Kingsford gains nothing from forcing TIY to attempt to produce some documentation he knows doesn't exist.


And it tips Zilwiki, Victor and the Ghost Hunters' hand as to what tipped them off.

If they do it like they rolled up the Alignment's operation on Earth, it could lead to the identities of at least the couriers and contacts.

The Detweilers are arrogant enough to continue using Technodyne to some extent.
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:41 am

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

Technodyne already has plenty of problems and remains as good a source as any for feeding whatever tech desired by the Alignment into the production streams. You have all sorts of R&D teams working on projects and ideas are generated. That the Alignment wants to feed something in is mostly a matter of feeding the basics to an agent/source and letting it go.

When the some item was presented from a customer- like Manpower or affiliated corporation- it would be built or first worked on and then incorporated with the details being buried fairly deeply.

It would be relatively easy for Technodyne to make custom modifications for things they already or are about to release for sales at the request of a client and not tell anybody except for the "usual" graft and corruption would be leading employees at many levels to make a little (or a lot) of extra income from the knowledge.

Thing is, I don't think Technodyne is or was producing even the Streak Drive ships as that would have been too much of a risk for the Alignment to take as the tech provides too much advantage to anybody else and would have opened a portal into the types of research in drives etc. We have been told that the Streak Drive ships are not easily identified as something differnt unless you look closely. So they seem to be probably normal standard tech ships but are being built elsewhere and then provided with very comprehensive documentation support. We have not been told where but at the present they probably are being built at Darius using what would be generally considered a "normals SL" design even if they may appeari higher quality. They are made to not stand our to normal observation though we are not told what would happen if some warship were to take a really good scan from close range. In the same reasoning, the Streak Drive ships would not have been built at Galton since the plan was always to use it as a decoy & sacrifice.

What I have to wonder is just how complicated was the payment arrangement for the League/ SLN to purchase all those Cataphracts to supply Fillerta etc with the money not actually going to Technodyne? Seriously, how many tens of thousands of multi-million credit missiles were purchased by the SLN just in the original load out for Filler's fleet and reloads if they didn't come from Technodyne? Who got paid?

And just how was the economy of Galton being run even if it was only "exporting" a paultry amount (compared to it's own production for defense) in the way of weapons, arms and equipment for the Alignment's black ops including the attack on Torch. It's like North Korea selling weapons, they need the money if only to provide for the lifestyles of the Kim family.

Technodyne was a conduit. The Alignment must have others.
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 08, 2023 12:33 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4169
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Brigade XO wrote:Thing is, I don't think Technodyne is or was producing even the Streak Drive ships as that would have been too much of a risk for the Alignment to take as the tech provides too much advantage to anybody else and would have opened a portal into the types of research in drives etc. We have been told that the Streak Drive ships are not easily identified as something differnt unless you look closely. So they seem to be probably normal standard tech ships but are being built elsewhere and then provided with very comprehensive documentation support. We have not been told where but at the present they probably are being built at Darius using what would be generally considered a "normals SL" design even if they may appeari higher quality. They are made to not stand our to normal observation though we are not told what would happen if some warship were to take a really good scan from close range. In the same reasoning, the Streak Drive ships would not have been built at Galton since the plan was always to use it as a decoy & sacrifice.


My guess is that the Streak Drives were actually built at Galton. That system had a huge industrial base, with capacity to build ships at will. As you say, the ships that called on other ports were probably built elsewhere, for documentation purposes. They were then flown to Galton where the streak drive would have been installed.

The Streak Drive was an evolutionary design, so it's likely something that got developed at Galton first, which is the older of the two hideouts, with a bigger industrial base. The Galton Navy ships were probably all equipped with Streak Drives. I've speculated before that the Mesan Alignment Navy based at Darius was only created after the Spider Drive breakthrough happened, because that breakthrough happened. There's a slight discrepancy here that Herlander Simões was still in the development project of the Streak Drive and this doesn't fit with the Galton Retcon.

What I have to wonder is just how complicated was the payment arrangement for the League/ SLN to purchase all those Cataphracts to supply Fillerta etc with the money not actually going to Technodyne? Seriously, how many tens of thousands of multi-million credit missiles were purchased by the SLN just in the original load out for Filler's fleet and reloads if they didn't come from Technodyne? Who got paid?


That's the thing, they weren't. Those missiles were directly supplied by the MAlign out of Galton, without purchase orders, payment, or invoices. This probably opened up the opportunity for someone to backdate the purchase and then just pocket the money.

Technodyne wouldn't have balked at an unexpected windfall, but given that the SLN was operating in headless chicken mode at this time and that they were probably throwing mountains of cash at Technodyne to make something work, I suspect none of it actually went there. The payment for those 2.5 million missiles probably went unnoticed.

And just how was the economy of Galton being run even if it was only "exporting" a paultry amount (compared to it's own production for defense) in the way of weapons, arms and equipment for the Alignment's black ops including the attack on Torch. It's like North Korea selling weapons, they need the money if only to provide for the lifestyles of the Kim family.

Technodyne was a conduit. The Alignment must have others.


Agreed, but TIY was probably the biggest conduit because they were the biggest arms company, period.

There's now the question of whether the MAlign will continue using their conduits. None of what was coming from Galton can flow any more.
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:33 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3963
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I've speculated before that the Mesan Alignment Navy based at Darius was only created after the Spider Drive breakthrough happened, because that breakthrough happened. There's a slight discrepancy here that Herlander Simões was still in the development project of the Streak Drive and this doesn't fit with the Galton Retcon.

There cannot be any causal relationship between the creation of the streak drive and the founding of Darius, because Darius was found after the discovery of the wormhole leading to it. Given the thinking of the Malign, there would have been a navy created as part of that founding.

There is not a discrepancy between the streak drive and Galton, because Herlander Simões was working on a team to improve the streak drive and not the team that initially created it.
From Torch of Freedom:
Chapter 17 wrote:"Problem, Ma'am?"
"Herlander Simões," she said, and he grimaced. She saw his expression and nodded.
"I know he's been under a lot of strain, Ma'am," he began, "but, so far, he's been holding up his end of his project, and—"
"Jack, I'm not criticizing his performance so far. And I'm certainly not criticizing the way you've handled him so far, either. But he's deeply involved in the entire streak drive improvement program, and that's one of our critical research areas. For that matter, he's got peripheral involvement in at least two other projects. I think, under the circumstances, it's probably appropriate for us to show a little additional concern in his case."
Top
Re: Cataphract development history
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:18 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8329
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

ThinksMarkedly wrote:My guess is that the Streak Drives were actually built at Galton. That system had a huge industrial base, with capacity to build ships at will. As you say, the ships that called on other ports were probably built elsewhere, for documentation purposes. They were then flown to Galton where the streak drive would have been installed.

If they were built somewhere outside the MAlign then I think what you're suggesting would either be very inefficient or else be unusual enough to attract (unwanted) attention.

The streak drive is "just" a larger, more powerful, hyper generator.

If a ship is built elsewhere you'd need to order it with enough cubage in its engineering spaces for, IIRC, a 50% larger hypergenerator. Just asking for that much unused space near the generator might attract attention. But if you didn't specify the extra space then the refit to install it would require moving a bunch of already installed systems - which just make the economics utterly stupid.

Then to get it from the yards to Galton you'd either need:
a) Them to install a regular hyper generator, which you'd then need to open the ship up and rip out to make room for your oversize streak version.
b) To send a ship capable to hauling the ship through hyper. And ordering a starship w/o hyper-drive is definitely going to get talked about -- because as far as anyone knows everyone's are just off-the-shelf standard components so there'd be no plausible reason not to have the yard install one while the ship was being built.

(Okay, in theory you could order the ship for purely in-system use, which would explain why it didn't have a hyper drive. There must be places that need interplanetary freighters, or mining ships, but lack the yards to build them locally. So one of those being build and then delivered by another ship wouldn't be so unusual. However such a ship would have no need for all the other things you need for hyper travel, like alpha nodes/sails, warshaski detectors, hyper log, etc. If you've got to add all those, plus hte streak drive, during a Galton refit it would probably have been cheaper and quicker just to build the whole thing there so that stuff could be included in the original design and installed before the ship was sealed up)
Top

Return to Honorverse