why does zilwicki know about bolthole?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Once the five major navies are rebuilt, the stations in the MBS and Yieltsin are back online, the IAN shipyards are also brought up to spec, will Bolthole still be that strategically important? Haven had must have had at least three more shipyards, but let's say they decommission one. Then add to that the Blackbird one, one more in the MBS and another RMN unit elsewhere (like Grendelsbane), and probably two IAN more, we're talking about 8 major shipyards with the same capabilities. Even if Bolthole is equal to 3 of the others, it would represent 30% of the GA's production capacity. It's considerable, but not a deathblow to lose it.

Going off on a tangent

I kind of doubt the RMN will rebuild a yard at Grendelsbane. Its (former) existence there was more an accident of history and politics than anything well planned. And it was kept there and expanded thanks in no small part to sunk costs.

Okay, it was somewhat well placed to support a flank of the expected war with Haven, but that's about all it had going for it.



If Manticore wants another major yard outside of the MBS I'd think Trevor's Star would be a better pick. It's a member system of the SKM (not just the larger SEM), but thanks to being connected to the Junction it's quick to access (yet the near impossibility of an assault through a defended wormhole means that proximity isn't really any additional security threat). It has a large and technically skilled population base to help support a yard. And Manticore is already going to need to devote significant defenses to the system anyway.

Though, in the fullness of time, there's something to be said for also putting at least a modern repair yard somewhere in the Talbott Quadrant.

Jonathan_S wrote:Going off on a tangent

I kind of doubt the RMN will rebuild a yard at Grendelsbane. Its (former) existence there was more an accident of history and politics than anything well planned. And it was kept there and expanded thanks in no small part to sunk costs.

Okay, it was somewhat well placed to support a flank of the expected war with Haven, but that's about all it had going for it.



If Manticore wants another major yard outside of the MBS I'd think Trevor's Star would be a better pick. It's a member system of the SKM (not just the larger SEM), but thanks to being connected to the Junction it's quick to access (yet the near impossibility of an assault through a defended wormhole means that proximity isn't really any additional security threat). It has a large and technically skilled population base to help support a yard. And Manticore is already going to need to devote significant defenses to the system anyway.

Though, in the fullness of time, there's something to be said for also putting at least a modern repair yard somewhere in the Talbott Quadrant.

In the back and forth over the ramifications of Oyster Bay, David said one of the outcomes of the High Ridge Missappro... -Sorry - Home Building Spree, was new commercial stations at Basilisk and Trevors Star, forts around each, and Naval repair yards - Which were pushed to capacity to support the fleet after OB.

Jonathan_S wrote:If Manticore wants another major yard outside of the MBS I'd think Trevor's Star would be a better pick. It's a member system of the SKM (not just the larger SEM), but thanks to being connected to the Junction it's quick to access (yet the near impossibility of an assault through a defended wormhole means that proximity isn't really any additional security threat). It has a large and technically skilled population base to help support a yard. And Manticore is already going to need to devote significant defenses to the system anyway.

Though, in the fullness of time, there's something to be said for also putting at least a modern repair yard somewhere in the Talbott Quadrant.

That's a very good point. When I began reading your answer, I was expecting you to propose Talbott or Silesia as the next big shipyard, but Trevor's Star makes far more sense. As you say, it doesn't add to the security threat, but does maximise the security defences that the RMN can provide. Both the Junction detachment of Home Fleet and the rest of Home Fleet can respond to an attack there very quickly, and defences posted on the TS side can reinforce the MBS quickly too (q.v. Operation Beatrice). Plus whatever may be at the other termini (Lynx and Basilisk come to mind).

With the FTL relay network, surprise attacks need to be coordinated within 15 minutes, lest the alert go to the other side.

It also simplifies logistics in a way no other location short of somewhere in the MBS itself would. If some important part breaks, it can be shipped to or from the MBS via the Junction in 24 hours or so. If one of the two sides is at capacity for something like fitting, the other can pick up the slack.

The only question is whether Manticore-B is the best place other than Manticore-A. It does benefit from the full MBS protection but at the same time is vulnerable to any weaknesses that this protection may have. So I don't think this is a question of "either/or" but of "both."

Another important advantage it would have is commerce with the Republic of Haven. By having so many skilled labourers on and around the San Martin, they'll consume products from Haven and export products there too. To the point that Empress Elizabeth may get a diplomatic cable from Emperer Gustav IX Anderman asking, "can we have one at Gregor too, please?"

ThinksMarkedly wrote:where's cthia, BTW?

It is worrisome, I have not seen anything in the forum from him since before Christmas. He did go several months without posting once before, but I think it might be approaching a year now. Despite my frequent disagreements with him, I hope he is okay.

Sidemore is already a yard for RMN in an allied system. While Marsh somewhat awkward in location, it is relevant in terms of position of both Gregor B and the SEM area of Silesia. It's already there, it is with an existing human inhabited planet.

Grendelsbane might be again usable as a materials resource but SEM had that lesson hammered in when the yard was/destroyed. It depends on the relative value of the ores in the system. Running extraction operations could be cost effective but you're not going to want to rebuild the fabrication end of anything there. Just refine out the materials and ship them in bulk to whichever point in the SEM it makes most sense, starting with the home system.

Expanding the RMN base at Gregor B may or may not be the best idea since we keep seeing bits surfacing in the story line about the Andermani being concerned about Manticore limiting access to the League and other markets thought closing off access by holding territory forcing the Andermani to use the Junction and not have any useful way though hyperspace w/o crossing SEM space. From memory, there isn't much at Gregor B, no usable planet, but it is the terminus providing one entry point to Silesia. I'm not sure how large the civilian presence is at Gregor B in terms of SEM citizens. On the other hand, having a local SEM population in orbital habitats and local manufacturing would make sense from the view of it being a population center providing civilian workforce for whatever RMN operations are located there and that it is not just a minor waypoint. If you're being sensitive to perceptions, whatever you do around Gregor B needs to be presented in terms of general security and protection of the terminus and the civilian/military establishment relative to it. You can probably reasonably put some set of forts [protection of the termius and it's facilities] but you are going to have to mirror that at other termini

I'm guessing that Manticore is still in the process of reconstruction of at least some of what was lost around Basilisk after the Peep attack.

Theemile wrote:In the back and forth over the ramifications of Oyster Bay, David said one of the outcomes of the High Ridge Missappro... -Sorry - Home Building Spree, was new commercial stations at Basilisk and Trevors Star, forts around each, and Naval repair yards - Which were pushed to capacity to support the fleet after OB.

As a repair yard, yes. Base Manufacturing/Construction yard of key critical components: No.

Hawaii, Guam, San Diego are key repair yards. No one would confuse them with Base manufacturing/construction yard centers.

Tip of the spear is NOT where one places your key manufacturing facilities. If it something simple and automated and the volume is sufficiently high enough to justify the cost of setup compared to transportation time or requirements for on time delivery(it is military and you can't wait around months for said components) then one can use multiple locations of manufacturing.

SL gets away with this partially due to its sheer size, but even they have only a couple of major manufacturing centers of key industries. Manticore? No way; even with their increase in size recently. Especially since no one knows when a fleet is congregating to practice attacking you, let alone attacking you. Nearly ALL indicators we use here on earth to tell our armed forces of ANY nation to go on high alert, do NOT exist in the HV. Which means a portion of your forces MUST be on HIGH ALERT at ALL TIMES which is 100% NOT true today and the VERY VERY short time we did it during the Cold war was RUINOUSLY expensive and VERY quickly ended!!! You would think this would FORCE people in the HV to make AUTOMATED forts but... well... This is the HV and there is nothing "automated" unless it is for the good guys.

Brigade XO wrote:Expanding the RMN base at Gregor B may or may not be the best idea since we keep seeing bits surfacing in the story line about the Andermani being concerned about Manticore limiting access to the League and other markets thought closing off access by holding territory forcing the Andermani to use the Junction and not have any useful way though hyperspace w/o crossing SEM space.

What story line is that?

Also, that may be a concern for Manticore, not the Andermani. For the Andermani, it's the opposite: they'd want Manticore to have tighter interdependency with them because that would mean any such Junction closures would also be cutting off the Manties' own arms in trade. It would also make the triangle journey through Silesia much more dangerous. The Andermani could reciprocate by blockading Gregor B and the Terminus.

So I don't see this happening unless the relationships between the two governments sour to the extreme.

What other options the Andermani have, we're not sure. We know they have access to the Asgard Junction at Durandel, which does bring them close to the League, but whether that's a good option or not, we can't tell. It would be a superior situation to what Haven would face, because we know from "Dark Fall" that 90% of the Republic was closer to Trevor's Star than the Calvin Wormhole and also 150 light-years shorter to Sol than going via Calvin anyway. Haven's only other option is the Erewhon Junction, a 6-week trip from Haven.

Both of those, and basically anyone nearby, really really wants access via the MWHJ.

BTW, speaking of economic terms, Asgard stands to be the next prosperous region, in a quadrangle route between Gregor, Durandel, Asgard, and Matapan.

[quote="ThinksMarkedly"]
What story line is that?

it was primarily from the posted comments/speculation about where SEM could or should set up ship construction yards but specifically about an Andermani concern about being blocked in access to trade or just access elsewhere is something I recall WhiteHaven talking about much earlier in the series......before the portioning of Silesia between SKM and the Andermani.

At the present point- which is way beyond where the Andermani have become close enough to be allied partners in the war against Haven then....finally as all the dirty dealings of the League with threads of the Alignment involvement in things like the assignation of one of the people in the Andermani line of succession. Of course at this point the Andermani have access to the same tech -directly from Manticore- that has been shared with or partially developed by Grayson and they finally came in openly with the GA against the League. Remember that for a good bit of time, while Manticore was sharing the new tech, they are also concerned --as apparently were the Andermani- that joining the Alliance against the SL would have a long term negative effect on them whichever way the war with the SL went and particularly Manticore (per White Haven) wanted to give the Emperor a lot of room and cover to not get sucked into the fight with the SL in order to leave them free to pursue other options.

But ONE of the concerns was that the IAE would they were being pushed out of access to the markets of the SL and other place the "other side" of the Manticore area of control was expanded. Clearly the negotiated treaty with the Andermani Empire about partitioning Silesia addressed a number of issues including (probably) mostly resolving questions about the expansion of the Andermani Empire and SKM into Silesia as problems of competition between the two. It certainly finally addressed the basic problems of the Confederation and rampant corruption and at least centuries of piracy (and we sort of understand that the Alignment was also involved in setting up that whole mess as well).
Nobody has mentioned any specific agreement between the AE and SEM reguarding Asgard etc but Manticore certainly has more than enough to keep it busy bringing the Talbot Cluster (which asked to join) and it's part of Silesia which is going to be brought in over a specified period of time and so will be just as happy not to get drawn into those other areas adjacent to AE space.
So far, there are apparently really strong trade agreements between SEM and AE and those build on what has been going on for years. Both Star Nations really are concerned with the Rule of Law and making sure that things are clear between them along with being consistent with enforcing the various regulations.

Of course that's just my take on the situation.

markusschaber wrote:

kzt wrote:This could be an explanation as to how the MA is going blow the crap out if, as everyone seems to know where it is. But I think not. It’s just to show he’s a well informed guy, who, in he weekly tea with the Queen, was told about this.

I am not sure whether Zilwicki actually knows where bolthole is. Knowing about its existence, purpose and maybe even capacity does not imply knowing about its location.

Ok but this is strange, not knowing the location.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:<snip>

What other options the Andermani have, we're not sure. We know they have access to the Asgard Junction at Durandel, which does bring them close to the League, but whether that's a good option or not, we can't tell. It would be a superior situation to what Haven would face, because we know from "Dark Fall" that 90% of the Republic was closer to Trevor's Star than the Calvin Wormhole and also 150 light-years shorter to Sol than going via Calvin anyway. Haven's only other option is the Erewhon Junction, a 6-week trip from Haven.

<snip>

The big question is when was this statement made - remember, the RoH lost 50% of it's systems from the height of the PRH. And most of the lost growth was the systems towards (and past) Trevor's star that had recently been captured by the PRH, with systems like Seaford 9 (and probably Barnet) abandoned because they only had military value, with the only population supporting the military facilities.

If this statement was originally made at the height of the PRH, the Calvin wormhole could be just outside the central 1/3rd of the RHN. not centralized, but not on the outskirts either.