might other nations be asking if the mantis are the badies?

Jonathan_S wrote:
The Silesia annexation is too close to what the Peeps used to do. The use of overt force to annex the system wasn't that common in the beginning, instead they would do that via diplomatic means and by corrupting government officials into accepting those diplomatic means. The military often also arrived to restore order after a breakdown that was instigated by the Peeps themselves.

And even the OFS usually found some stooge to invite them in to replace the 'failed' system governments -- for the good of the inhabitants; you understand. Never for something so crass as money, influence, or power. Perish the thought.


The fact that this time the governments really were that corrupt, and the people really will be better off under the new management, doesn't change the fact that the partition of Silesia looks a hell of a lot like many other ugly territorial grabs from the past couple centuries of the Honorverse.


However, as you pointed out, Manticore's track record elsewhere with its neighbors is far different from the bad of days of Haven, or what the OFS does, and that will hopefully reassure its neighbors despite the scary looking precedent of forcibly partitioning Silesia.[/quote]

Given a few years, people who are watching will see infrastructure investment from the outside, not economic gouging, as was seen the OFS and Peep worlds, There will be strong rule of Law favoring the populace, not the government, free, transparent elections at lower levels and rising to planetary levels. Governors with good reputations who guide local populations, not crush them. And finally, a removal of crime syndicates and piracy, replaced buy free flowing trade.

It might not be perfect, but the planets of Silesia will be in a much better place in 10-15 years.

Theemile wrote:Given a few years, people who are watching will see infrastructure investment from the outside, not economic gouging, as was seen the OFS and Peep worlds, There will be strong rule of Law favoring the populace, not the government, free, transparent elections at lower levels and rising to planetary levels. Governors with good reputations who guide local populations, not crush them. And finally, a removal of crime syndicates and piracy, replaced buy free flowing trade.

It might not be perfect, but the planets of Silesia will be in a much better place in 10-15 years.

True. And that should eventually help calm down any neighbors who did get nervous about Mantie expansionistic tendencies (assuming that they don't dismiss all that information as OFS or PubIn style propaganda being peddled by Manticore).
Also, if those 10-15 years go by with no additional expansions that will also tend to dampen concerns.


But only Manticore's prior good acts could impact whether their neighbors had been alarmed by the partition of Silesia. But those neighbors that didn't will, presumably, feed comfortably vindicated in their trust in Manticore when, down the line, they see those improvements in Silesia that you mentioned.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Given a few years, people who are watching will see infrastructure investment from the outside, not economic gouging, as was seen the OFS and Peep worlds, There will be strong rule of Law favoring the populace, not the government, free, transparent elections at lower levels and rising to planetary levels. Governors with good reputations who guide local populations, not crush them. And finally, a removal of crime syndicates and piracy, replaced buy free flowing trade.

It might not be perfect, but the planets of Silesia will be in a much better place in 10-15 years.

True. And that should eventually help calm down any neighbors who did get nervous about Mantie expansionistic tendencies (assuming that they don't dismiss all that information as OFS or PubIn style propaganda being peddled by Manticore).
Also, if those 10-15 years go by with no additional expansions that will also tend to dampen concerns.


But only Manticore's prior good acts could impact whether their neighbors had been alarmed by the partition of Silesia. But those neighbors that didn't will, presumably, feed comfortably vindicated in their trust in Manticore when, down the line, they see those improvements in Silesia that you mentioned.

The economic and military situation will change quickly for any neighboring polities. Piracy will disappear, and it will become cheaper for shipping firms to operate freighters in the region. most of the neighbors probably already have a relationship with the Manties (they have been operating in Silesia for 350 years) so if they don't see any change in how the Manties operate after the annexation, they probably don't have a lot of concerns (or they mostly will be quickly allayed.)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:It might not be perfect, but the planets of Silesia will be in a much better place in 10-15 years.

True. And that should eventually help calm down any neighbors who did get nervous about Mantie expansionistic tendencies (assuming that they don't dismiss all that information as OFS or PubIn style propaganda being peddled by Manticore).
Also, if those 10-15 years go by with no additional expansions that will also tend to dampen concerns.

Of course, no one wants to wait that long with a potential risk on their borders before taking action, giving the benefit of the doubt.

However, by this point there's also the example of the Talbott Quadrant. It will have been receiving direct investment and no gouging for a few years already. Moreover, the Talbott Sector was really poor; even the RTU systems were probably poorer than Silesia. So those neighbours should be asking: what does Manticore gain from annexing Talbott? And what are the Talbottians paying?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Of course, no one wants to wait that long with a potential risk on their borders before taking action, giving the benefit of the doubt.

However, by this point there's also the example of the Talbott Quadrant. It will have been receiving direct investment and no gouging for a few years already. Moreover, the Talbott Sector was really poor; even the RTU systems were probably poorer than Silesia. So those neighbours should be asking: what does Manticore gain from annexing Talbott? And what are the Talbottians paying?

What is anyone going to do beyond complain? And to Whom? No one outside the SLN has a force that cannot be overwhelmed by a pair of Manty SD(p)s and their escorts - and the SLN just requires a Manty Squadron or 2 with escorts to be put down. Yes, a neighbor might use direct action at the foot level to destabilize local politics, at the risk of it spectacularly backfiring against them. As a minimum, Manticore could just embargo such a planet from it's economy (and any allied economy - meaning Andermani and Havenite) if a neighboring polity attempted direct political action.

Theemile wrote:What is anyone going to do beyond complain? And to Whom? No one outside the SLN has a force that cannot be overwhelmed by a pair of Manty SD(p)s and their escorts - and the SLN just requires a Manty Squadron or 2 with escorts to be put down. Yes, a neighbor might use direct action at the foot level to destabilize local politics, at the risk of it spectacularly backfiring against them. As a minimum, Manticore could just embargo such a planet from it's economy (and any allied economy - meaning Andermani and Havenite) if a neighboring polity attempted direct political action.

The complaining is the key. The systems under OFS control may have had governments saying "everything is fine, nothing to look here," but that probably fooled no one who bothered to look. Those neighbours can easily pool together their resources and go find out if the Talbottians are complaining and why.

It doesn't matter if there's anyone heeding those complaints. Or, more to the point, it matters if Manticore isn't and is actively trying to suppress the information. In a free society, there will always be people who have qualms and complaints, more requests, and will be dissatisfied with something. So long as it's a healthy amount of criticism, being acted upon to the betterment of the society, it's a good thing.

So if those new neighbours in Silesia are finding complaints, but they are the general type of complaints one would expect from a free society ("First World problems"), and that the population of the Talbott systems are actually improving their quality of life, their prospects, and their participation in the government, they should conclude there's little to fear from Manticore.

Of course, if they found the opposite, it would be very difficult to do anything to stop an imperialist and conquering Manticore from doing the same to them.

You have a very optimistic view of how people see things and the press works. The “free press” of the SL was controlled by the government censorship board to prevent ‘disinformation’ and ‘misinformation’. Which means truths the government didn’t want the people to know. The reporter who was the biggest pain in the ass of the censors was and most committed to truth was an committed agent of the MA.

Who would use her rep to pump MA propaganda if needed.

kzt wrote:You have a very optimistic view of how people see things and the press works. The “free press” of the SL was controlled by the government censorship board to prevent ‘disinformation’ and ‘misinformation’. Which means truths the government didn’t want the people to know. The reporter who was the biggest pain in the ass of the censors was and most committed to truth was an committed agent of the MA.

Who would use her rep to pump MA propaganda if needed.

I was thinking about the government of those systems. If they were worried about the situation, they'd have the resources to get the information out of the Manticore systems without too much effort, because we know that the Manticore press is very free. If it weren't, they'd also be able to tell and that by itself would be a red flag.

What they want to tell their populations is a different story. Likewise, someone else may be manipulating the story in their systems, either in favour of or against Manticore, causing the government to have to react. And the truth may not be a sufficient argument to sway the public opinion.

But as we discussed, there's no recourse if the Manties were baddies. All the polities that could stand up to Manticore are Manticore's own allies. So the worst anyone could do is stir up public opinion in those systems against requesting and approving a future annexation. There may be some economic or political interest in that, remaining a big fish in the pond instead of a minnow in the ocean that the Empire (either of them) would be. It's also likely that corruption would be far easier under those existing governments than under the Manticore central one.

But I'd ask those corrupt enterprises: would you actually make more money in a legit business with a bigger market?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
But I'd ask those corrupt enterprises: would you actually make more money in a legit business with a bigger market?

And the answer in almost all cases is no - corruption stifles economies. Unfortunately, the people who use such tools never seem to be able to see that a small piece of a massive, dynamic economy is usually bigger than a massive piece of a small corrupt one. In addition, such a legal route, is less stressful and easier than illegal and immoral business practices are.

Theemile wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
But I'd ask those corrupt enterprises: would you actually make more money in a legit business with a bigger market?

And the answer in almost all cases is no - corruption stifles economies. Unfortunately, the people who use such tools never seem to be able to see that a small piece of a massive, dynamic economy is usually bigger than a massive piece of a small corrupt one. In addition, such a legal route, is less stressful and easier than illegal and immoral business practices are.

So you're agreeing with me: going legit could get them more wealth in a bigger market.