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Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks

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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by Theemile   » Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:29 am

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Let's not forget this story was one of Eric Flint's early stories in the Honorverse, not one of David's David allowed a lot of Eric's stories to happen, even though they were not really in line with many of the Honorverse's story lines and tech, and ended up altering David's initial timeline.

So something like the Kitchen could simply be a throwaway line from Eric, trying to indicate a technologically advanced culture, so different form ours that a staple of humanity has all but disappeared.

In "Cauldron of Ghosts" he does something similar with cloth blinds on a window, indicating that "cloth" is primative and most wealthy, advanced places had windows that opaque or shaded electronically, yet we also know that the Cloths and Lizard skins produced on Grayson are treasured decorations of the wealthy.

So I'm just going to call this a throw away line from Eric, not indicative of David's Honorverse.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by tlb   » Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:50 am

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Theemile wrote:Let's not forget this story was one of Eric Flint's early stories in the Honorverse, not one of David's David allowed a lot of Eric's stories to happen, even though they were not really in line with many of the Honorverse's story lines and tech, and ended up altering David's initial timeline.

No, To End In Fire is not an early story and was written in complete collaboration with David. As I and and others have pointed out, his early stories include the use of kitchens. Perhaps it would be best if someone would reproduce the text or point to the place in the book where the quote was made.
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:54 am

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tlb wrote:
ZVar wrote:To play Devil's Advocate only the Honor's house one even insinuates of food being cooked there. Every thing else is just the word kitchen, or more a pantry. I.e. where the food is stored. Maybe Zilwicki was talking about a food prep area with a stove, sink, counter top, etc. are for food prep instead of, for example, simply a pantry and microwave looking appliance to make food.

You need to reread the text I provided about Rozsak's kitchen, where the author specifically talks about the joy of cooking.

I'd also point out that Service of the Sword's 'With One Stone' makes the distinction between a kitchen and the kitchenette that honeymoon suite three at the resort complex had. If a "kitchen" was just a pantry and a microwave then what would the even more diminutive "kitchenette" be?

And we know that the Simões kitchen specifically has a refrigerator, as ToF says "Despite that, or perhaps because of it, Harriet had a habit of leaving written notes stuck to the refrigerator rather than using her personal minicomp to mail them to him."

CoG is less specific but it does says, about the planned evacuation "As was true of modern residential towers everywhere, most people in Neue Rostock ate food that they prepared themselves in their own kitchens. Still, with this many people concentrated in a single building, there were always a large number who wanted to eat at one of the cafeterias or restaurants scattered throughout Neue Rostock.
But now, the tower’s public kitchens were closing. The cooks had spent the last period making foods that could be carried easily and would keep for days without refrigeration." (though I guess you could argue that "prepared" meant thrown in the microwave)


And if we look for examples of cooking in the Honorverse:
* Well, Honor's dad is said to be an excellent cook (remember Mistress Thorne allows him into the Harrington House kitchen and they trade recipes).
* EoH talks about how Grayson women need to monitor metal levels in the (presumably fresh) vegetables they're planning to cook for dinner.
* CoG goes into a description of butane gas grills for what it calls "recreational cooking"
* And then there are less helpful scattered references to the smells of cooking.
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by Puidwen   » Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:03 am

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Had a thought. If kitchens had disappeared wouldn't half the job of all the naval stewards running around be pointless? I always got the impression Mac was making that food aboard ship.
Last edited by Puidwen on Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by Theemile   » Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:18 am

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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:Let's not forget this story was one of Eric Flint's early stories in the Honorverse, not one of David's David allowed a lot of Eric's stories to happen, even though they were not really in line with many of the Honorverse's story lines and tech, and ended up altering David's initial timeline.

No, To End In Fire is not an early story and was written in complete collaboration with David. As I and and others have pointed out, his early stories include the use of kitchens. Perhaps it would be best if someone would reproduce the text or point to the place in the book where the quote was made.


Sorry, I missed that this is To end in Fire.

But my point still stands, parts were written by Flint, and probably don't match the general aim of David's work. (heck, as pointed out, even Eric's works have kitchens).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by tlb   » Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:30 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:There is a scene in the March 1923 PD chapter (Zilwicki's meeting with Arianne McBryde), where Anton reflects that the word "kitchen" was being used for the alcove where a very sophisticated machine resided. It appears only newly settled, or backward, planets (as well as people with significant amounts of cash) had rooms where food was actually cooked. BTW, I suspect that the Dempsey Bars probably did cook food.

If this is the quote that is meant, then it should be pointed out that Arianne McBryde is a very wealthy person (compared to the universe average) and so matches what was said earlier:
Daryl wrote:However a few people we know are nearly there. Trendy DINKS (double income no kids), their kitchen contains a fridge with a few exotic cheeses and some almond milk. Otherwise water crackers for the cheese and possibly a baguette. They eat out each meal time.
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:33 am

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tlb wrote:
ZVar wrote:To play Devil's Advocate only the Honor's house one even insinuates of food being cooked there. Every thing else is just the word kitchen, or more a pantry. I.e. where the food is stored. Maybe Zilwicki was talking about a food prep area with a stove, sink, counter top, etc. are for food prep instead of, for example, simply a pantry and microwave looking appliance to make food.

You need to reread the text I provided about Rozsak's kitchen, where the author specifically talks about the joy of cooking.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd also point out that Service of the Sword's 'With One Stone' makes the distinction between a kitchen and the kitchenette that honeymoon suite three at the resort complex had. If a "kitchen" was just a pantry and a microwave then what would the even more diminutive "kitchenette" be?

And we know that the Simões kitchen specifically has a refrigerator, as ToF says "Despite that, or perhaps because of it, Harriet had a habit of leaving written notes stuck to the refrigerator rather than using her personal minicomp to mail them to him."

CoG is less specific but it does says, about the planned evacuation "As was true of modern residential towers everywhere, most people in Neue Rostock ate food that they prepared themselves in their own kitchens. Still, with this many people concentrated in a single building, there were always a large number who wanted to eat at one of the cafeterias or restaurants scattered throughout Neue Rostock.
But now, the tower’s public kitchens were closing. The cooks had spent the last period making foods that could be carried easily and would keep for days without refrigeration." (though I guess you could argue that "prepared" meant thrown in the microwave)


And if we look for examples of cooking in the Honorverse:
* Well, Honor's dad is said to be an excellent cook (remember Mistress Thorne allows him into the Harrington House kitchen and they trade recipes).
* EoH talks about how Grayson women need to monitor metal levels in the (presumably fresh) vegetables they're planning to cook for dinner.
* CoG goes into a description of butane gas grills for what it calls "recreational cooking"
* And then there are less helpful scattered references to the smells of cooking.

A kitchenette is found in college dorms and hotels. They feature a very small refrigerator and a very small stove, and not necessarily an oven. Actually the stove is oftentimes simply four burners installed in a counter. No stove. Cooking is for emergencies. My insanely expensive very small shoe box of a studio apartment in Silicon Valley had a kitchenette. I rarely used it for anything other than making sandwiches and warming up leftovers. Even the microwave was small, as was the sink. But the delivery services were second to none.

I imagine it is very cheap to eat out in the HV as opposed to firing up your air car and flying to the grocery store. Deliveries are seamless and fast with the HV's drones.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by tlb   » Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:14 am

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cthia wrote:I imagine it is very cheap to eat out in the HV as opposed to firing up your air car and flying to the grocery store. Deliveries are seamless and fast with the HV's drones.

But groceries can also be delivered. So the question is which is cheaper: cooking or eating what a professional cooked? For the mass of humanity, it is cheaper to do the work yourself; rather than paying someone to do it. Only the affluent can decide based on convenience.
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:26 pm

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tlb wrote:But groceries can also be delivered. So the question is which is cheaper: cooking or eating what a professional cooked? For the mass of humanity, it is cheaper to do the work yourself; rather than paying someone to do it. Only the affluent can decide based on convenience.


Today, that is true.

But it used to be true that growing your own food was cheaper than having it shipped from the next town over, let alone half-way around the world. Today, that isn't the case any more.

There are two economic aspects I could see changing the nature of food preparation again. First, it's simply the economies of scale. If food preparation is centralised by professional people, especially if they have lots of automation to help, it can be far cheaper than for each people to repeat that process by themselves, amateurishly, in low scale. We're not too far from this already, where canned and ready-to-eat meals are very cheap. They are not so cheap today that they overwhelm the market against fresh ingredients, though. The fact that they have lower nutritional value and worse health properties is something that can be solved with more technology.

Second, it's the cost of shipping. Shipping fresh, unprepared ingredients already costs more than shipping prepared food in standardised packaging. There's also the cost of shipping in time because fresh ingredients have a shorter shelf life than industrialised ones. The fact that the latter has other properties that make them less appealing is one of the reasons holding it back. Though I have to point out that the economies of shipping in the HV make no economic sense, so take this point with a grain of salt.

Then there's a social point here: if people simply lose the interest in making food, then it does become a niche activity. This can be added to the demand in time for each person to prepare their meals, versus pressing a button or two and having food ready to eat. Take the example of robotic cleaners like Roomba: I have one of those that mops the floor and it neither cleans as fast as I can nor as well as I do. However, the big difference to me is that I can do something else while it cleans, so I often set it to do its job while I am at the laptop doing something (such as posting on a certain web forum). Another example is the dishwasher: I can wash more quickly than it can, but my time commitment is smaller when it washes. Add to that the fact that it uses less water and less detergent, and probably washes better than I do.

The same can happen to food preparation and centralised, standardised, industrialised meals don't have to be "race to the bottom" in terms of cost at the expense of flavour. In fact, we are seeing this now, with some online services delivering tasty and nutritious food which you just have to heat before eating.

I'm not saying it will happen. I'm saying it can happen.

Now I'm going to search what to order in for lunch.
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Re: Complaining about Kitchens and Coat Racks
Post by tlb   » Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:26 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
tlb wrote:But groceries can also be delivered. So the question is which is cheaper: cooking or eating what a professional cooked? For the mass of humanity, it is cheaper to do the work yourself; rather than paying someone to do it. Only the affluent can decide based on convenience.


Today, that is true.

But it used to be true that growing your own food was cheaper than having it shipped from the next town over, let alone half-way around the world. Today, that isn't the case any more.

There are two economic aspects I could see changing the nature of food preparation again. First, it's simply the economies of scale. If food preparation is centralised by professional people, especially if they have lots of automation to help, it can be far cheaper than for each people to repeat that process by themselves, amateurishly, in low scale. We're not too far from this already, where canned and ready-to-eat meals are very cheap. They are not so cheap today that they overwhelm the market against fresh ingredients, though. The fact that they have lower nutritional value and worse health properties is something that can be solved with more technology.

Second, it's the cost of shipping. Shipping fresh, unprepared ingredients already costs more than shipping prepared food in standardised packaging. There's also the cost of shipping in time because fresh ingredients have a shorter shelf life than industrialised ones. The fact that the latter has other properties that make them less appealing is one of the reasons holding it back.

I understand your points, but there are additional factors involved. The main point I have is whether opening various cans or boxes and heating the contents yourself counts as cooking or just eating something that someone else has cooked? I would say that having those containers in a pantry and making the choice over what to heat counts as cooking in the modern world. Particularly since combining those ingredients can make something new. This is in opposition to having a complete meal delivered hot and doing nothing more yourself than eating it (even with the options of reheating after a delay or putting the food into prettier dishes).

Eating is not optional, so the economic question remains: professionally preparing food and then packaging it for later use is economically efficient, professionally preparing food for immediate consumption is not (no matter how good it tastes).
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