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Treecat vs Earth's apex predators

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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:06 pm

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Treecats knew how to throw rocks already, which is how I think they did most of the blinding before actually leaping in to physically attack. One or two rockthrowers may not be able to deal with the agility of a large Sphinxian predator (or for the purposes of this thread a large Terran predator), but when you had some/most/all of a whole clan there, it'd be awfully hard to dodge hundreds of thrown rocks. And based on the description of Nimitz' skill with a frisbee "taking your head off", even if metaphorical, heavily implies they're pretty darn accurate at rock throwing.


Pulsers are highly unlikely to be among the Sphinxian clans for many years. Remember that first dibs on these specialty sized guns will go to the active bodyguards first, to deal with human threats. Then a reserve for newly assigned (or Bonded) cat bodyguards. Honestly the 'wild' cats dont need pulsers even for securing their nests; as mentioned they were doing just fine with rocks and sheer numbers for centuries.


Hasn't the SFS been supplying the treecat clans with tools that may or may not included vibrating knives & axes for decades or longer? If anything, 'wild' treecats are far more likely to fill their hands with additional vibro-knives and axes. Sure they're slightly more advanced tools than the previous centuries, but old tactics are still good tactics as long as they worked.


And the tactics worked because it was WITH the predators instincts, not against them. Those predators know beyond any doubt, that actively entering treecat territory is highly likely to result in extreme pain, possible disfigurement and if truly unlucky death.

Getting shot dead by a pulser beyond the border of treecat territory won't do too much because there's no detectible border edge. The predators might eventually learn to avoid X region, but they don't learn why to avoid it. Or learn that the treecat territory maybe just expanded and what 'used to be' a safe area is now deadly, because they can't detect the new border markings.
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:26 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Treecats knew how to throw rocks already, which is how I think they did most of the blinding before actually leaping in to physically attack. One or two rockthrowers may not be able to deal with the agility of a large Sphinxian predator (or for the purposes of this thread a large Terran predator), but when you had some/most/all of a whole clan there, it'd be awfully hard to dodge hundreds of thrown rocks. And based on the description of Nimitz' skill with a frisbee "taking your head off", even if metaphorical, heavily implies they're pretty darn accurate at rock throwing.


Pulsers are highly unlikely to be among the Sphinxian clans for many years. Remember that first dibs on these specialty sized guns will go to the active bodyguards first, to deal with human threats. Then a reserve for newly assigned (or Bonded) cat bodyguards. Honestly the 'wild' cats dont need pulsers even for securing their nests; as mentioned they were doing just fine with rocks and sheer numbers for centuries.


Hasn't the SFS been supplying the treecat clans with tools that may or may not included vibrating knives & axes for decades or longer? If anything, 'wild' treecats are far more likely to fill their hands with additional vibro-knives and axes. Sure they're slightly more advanced tools than the previous centuries, but old tactics are still good tactics as long as they worked.


And the tactics worked because it was WITH the predators instincts, not against them. Those predators know beyond any doubt, that actively entering treecat territory is highly likely to result in extreme pain, possible disfigurement and if truly unlucky death.

Getting shot dead by a pulser beyond the border of treecat territory won't do too much because there's no detectible border edge. The predators might eventually learn to avoid X region, but they don't learn why to avoid it. Or learn that the treecat territory maybe just expanded and what 'used to be' a safe area is now deadly, because they can't detect the new border markings.

I certainly agree that vibro-blades are much more likely than pulsers. I disagree that if pulsers were used, then there would be no effect; since a dead predator does not learn anything. Although it would not need to get to that point; if all the predators that get adventurous when smelling treecat are killed, then you are left with only the predators that get cautious when smelling treecat.

In the one fight we are given, the Hexapuma versus 'cat and Stephanie Harrington, there is no mention of rock throwing; not even when the clan arrives and basically mobs the 'puma. Therefore I do not believe that has been a part of the treecat attack. Consider that they swarm down from the trees and not every terrain (particularly one well supplied with trees) will be supplied with rocks.
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:09 am

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Somtaaw wrote:Treecats knew how to throw rocks already, which is how I think they did most of the blinding before actually leaping in to physically attack. One or two rockthrowers may not be able to deal with the agility of a large Sphinxian predator (or for the purposes of this thread a large Terran predator), but when you had some/most/all of a whole clan there, it'd be awfully hard to dodge hundreds of thrown rocks. And based on the description of Nimitz' skill with a frisbee "taking your head off", even if metaphorical, heavily implies they're pretty darn accurate at rock throwing.


Pulsers are highly unlikely to be among the Sphinxian clans for many years. Remember that first dibs on these specialty sized guns will go to the active bodyguards first, to deal with human threats. Then a reserve for newly assigned (or Bonded) cat bodyguards. Honestly the 'wild' cats dont need pulsers even for securing their nests; as mentioned they were doing just fine with rocks and sheer numbers for centuries.


Hasn't the SFS been supplying the treecat clans with tools that may or may not included vibrating knives & axes for decades or longer? If anything, 'wild' treecats are far more likely to fill their hands with additional vibro-knives and axes. Sure they're slightly more advanced tools than the previous centuries, but old tactics are still good tactics as long as they worked.


And the tactics worked because it was WITH the predators instincts, not against them. Those predators know beyond any doubt, that actively entering treecat territory is highly likely to result in extreme pain, possible disfigurement and if truly unlucky death.

Getting shot dead by a pulser beyond the border of treecat territory won't do too much because there's no detectible border edge. The predators might eventually learn to avoid X region, but they don't learn why to avoid it. Or learn that the treecat territory maybe just expanded and what 'used to be' a safe area is now deadly, because they can't detect the new border markings.

I stand corrected. Their arms are too short to swing an object as a weapon. But if their arms are too short to swing a bat or bone, how exactly would they manage to throw rocks? Drop them from trees maybe, but throw them?

They can certainly fling a frisbee. I can fling a frisbee with my elbow stationary against my rib cage shortening my arm. A frisbee can be thrown with the flick of the wrist. But again, how can they throw rocks with any substantial force?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:47 pm

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cthia wrote:I stand corrected. Their arms are too short to swing an object as a weapon. But if their arms are too short to swing a bat or bone, how exactly would they manage to throw rocks? Drop them from trees maybe, but throw them?

They can certainly fling a frisbee. I can fling a frisbee with my elbow stationary against my rib cage shortening my arm. A frisbee can be thrown with the flick of the wrist. But again, how can they throw rocks with any substantial force?


Rocks are an impact weapon and I've already said 'cats can't do meaningful damage with impact weapons. However, they still have their use--throw them at eyes/ears. Make the hexapuma concern itself with saving it's vision and it's not going to be nearly as effective at hitting the swarm of 'cats descending on it.
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:27 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
cthia wrote:I stand corrected. Their arms are too short to swing an object as a weapon. But if their arms are too short to swing a bat or bone, how exactly would they manage to throw rocks? Drop them from trees maybe, but throw them?

They can certainly fling a frisbee. I can fling a frisbee with my elbow stationary against my rib cage shortening my arm. A frisbee can be thrown with the flick of the wrist. But again, how can they throw rocks with any substantial force?


Rocks are an impact weapon and I've already said 'cats can't do meaningful damage with impact weapons. However, they still have their use--throw them at eyes/ears. Make the hexapuma concern itself with saving it's vision and it's not going to be nearly as effective at hitting the swarm of 'cats descending on it.

Ah! As a diversion! Nice tactic.

Does anyone think being native to a high-grav world gives them any significant advantage?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by Somtaaw   » Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:25 pm

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tlb wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Pulsers are highly unlikely to be among the Sphinxian clans for many years. Remember that first dibs on these specialty sized guns will go to the active bodyguards first, to deal with human threats. Then a reserve for newly assigned (or Bonded) cat bodyguards. Honestly the 'wild' cats dont need pulsers even for securing their nests; as mentioned they were doing just fine with rocks and sheer numbers for centuries.


Hasn't the SFS been supplying the treecat clans with tools that may or may not included vibrating knives & axes for decades or longer? If anything, 'wild' treecats are far more likely to fill their hands with additional vibro-knives and axes. Sure they're slightly more advanced tools than the previous centuries, but old tactics are still good tactics as long as they worked.


And the tactics worked because it was WITH the predators instincts, not against them. Those predators know beyond any doubt, that actively entering treecat territory is highly likely to result in extreme pain, possible disfigurement and if truly unlucky death.

Getting shot dead by a pulser beyond the border of treecat territory won't do too much because there's no detectible border edge. The predators might eventually learn to avoid X region, but they don't learn why to avoid it. Or learn that the treecat territory maybe just expanded and what 'used to be' a safe area is now deadly, because they can't detect the new border markings.

I certainly agree that vibro-blades are much more likely than pulsers. I disagree that if pulsers were used, then there would be no effect; since a dead predator does not learn anything. Although it would not need to get to that point; if all the predators that get adventurous when smelling treecat are killed, then you are left with only the predators that get cautious when smelling treecat.

In the one fight we are given, the Hexapuma versus 'cat and Stephanie Harrington, there is no mention of rock throwing; not even when the clan arrives and basically mobs the 'puma. Therefore I do not believe that has been a part of the treecat attack. Consider that they swarm down from the trees and not every terrain (particularly one well supplied with trees) will be supplied with rocks.



I'm not entirely sure predators would smell treecats. Scouts would take great pains to drop their scent to nearly nothing, after all you can't scout easily if they smell you coming. Judging by the descriptions of cats like Clean Killer being 'several miles from Black Rock' before it died to a KEW, and Clean Killer was at their shared clan borders, the inner nests would also be 'several miles' from the border edges, so predators by definition wouldn't be able to smell the tree-kittens, or other treecats like say Memory Singers easily either.


That leaves two of the other well known methods of marking territory, slashing at trees and/or urinating on them. I can't think of many other methods a treecat might use, and those two methods do go very well in telling even the dumbest predator that if they keep going they will be in danger soon.

I totally concur that just shooting the hexapumas, peak bears and kodiaks before they enter cat territory is far simpler and easier than rushing them with claws, rocks and perhaps human-made edged weapons. But it would leave considerably less methods for predators to learn or realize what used to be 'safe to hunt' grounds just became annexed by treecats whether because they simply wanted to expand an existing clan, or maybe just form an entirely new one is irrelevant.

Treecats don't strike me as the kind that kill purely for pleasure, only for transgressions like entering their territory, goes pretty hand in hand with the treecat mindset of "threats that have been dealt with, and those that are still alive". Until and unless the predator crosses their clan territory border, it's not a threat and should only be tracked to stay aware of it's location/heading. Only once it does cross the border markings will it become a valid threat and therefore a target.


The only time I think the cats might attack first, including outside their claimed land, is to aid a particularly unalert/unaware human. Even the Sphinx Forestry Rangers might get caught up doing one thing which could be loud, and not be aware of the hexapuma slithering closer from behind.
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:28 pm

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cthia wrote:Ah! As a diversion! Nice tactic.


Which is something only higher intelligence can do: plan ahead and think of consequences. We don't usually see this in earth animals, except for maybe some pack behaviour where they leave behind a weaker member to be caught. But setting traps and diversion? That's rare.

Does anyone think being native to a high-grav world gives them any significant advantage?


Somewhat and it depends on where this interaction takes place. The Sphinx natives will have denser muscles, assuming they have biology like ours. So they will be stronger for the same size... so long as they haven't been away from that higher gravity for too long. If they have, then muscle atrophy could set in, though that can also be worked around with medication.

Then there's the question of whether this encounter happens on 1.0G or 1.3G. With 30% more gravity, a thrown rock will fall faster for the same vertical separation and will have a higher final velocity. For example, if the cat is 4.9 m above the target, at 1.0 gravity the rock will fall for 1 second (which is why I chose that height), reaching a velocity of 9.8 m/s towards the ground. For the same vertical separation on Sphinx, the fall time is only 0.876 s and reaches a vertical velocity of 11.18 m/s. The vertical contribution to the kinetic energy of that rock is 1.3 times greater because of this, all else being equal.
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 23, 2022 11:03 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Ah! As a diversion! Nice tactic.


Which is something only higher intelligence can do: plan ahead and think of consequences. We don't usually see this in earth animals, except for maybe some pack behaviour where they leave behind a weaker member to be caught. But setting traps and diversion? That's rare.

Does anyone think being native to a high-grav world gives them any significant advantage?


Somewhat and it depends on where this interaction takes place. The Sphinx natives will have denser muscles, assuming they have biology like ours. So they will be stronger for the same size... so long as they haven't been away from that higher gravity for too long. If they have, then muscle atrophy could set in, though that can also be worked around with medication.

Then there's the question of whether this encounter happens on 1.0G or 1.3G. With 30% more gravity, a thrown rock will fall faster for the same vertical separation and will have a higher final velocity. For example, if the cat is 4.9 m above the target, at 1.0 gravity the rock will fall for 1 second (which is why I chose that height), reaching a velocity of 9.8 m/s towards the ground. For the same vertical separation on Sphinx, the fall time is only 0.876 s and reaches a vertical velocity of 11.18 m/s. The vertical contribution to the kinetic energy of that rock is 1.3 times greater because of this, all else being equal.

Indeed. Nice post. I can't help from recalling my youth during the time we would wear ankle weights all day long, and then we could leap out of the building on the basketball court after we removed them.

It also reminds me of Honor telling us how Nimitz' frisbees came in hot! LOL

Most Terran animals would probably underestimate a Sphinxian Cat. But then vice versa. I wonder if Nimitz would have a problem with a large constricting snake like a python.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:24 pm

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cthia wrote:Most Terran animals would probably underestimate a Sphinxian Cat. But then vice versa. I wonder if Nimitz would have a problem with a large constricting snake like a python.


I think Nimitz could slice up said snake and remove the threat.
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Re: Treecat vs Earth's apex predators
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:23 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
cthia wrote:Most Terran animals would probably underestimate a Sphinxian Cat. But then vice versa. I wonder if Nimitz would have a problem with a large constricting snake like a python.


I think Nimitz could slice up said snake and remove the threat.

Nimitz might get caught off-guard. Especially if constricting snakes are not part of his experience. Are there constricting snakes on Sphynx? If the snake wraps Nimitz up before he can use his claws, Nimitz is toast.

Wrestlers can defeat boxers if they get them in a submission hold first. Like Zilwicki getting you in a headlock.

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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